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M4 Relief Road

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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 11:52 am

Jantra wrote:Why would we want a north south road when our economy flows East West?

Even if it did make sense to do so, where would you build it? The obvious choice would be the a470 but having driven that many times I'd say that's a non starter.


"We" want a north-south road so that people in Wales can travel easily to other parts of the country, which is quite difficult, dangerous and slow right now. Bypass every town along the a470 and a483. Straighten the roads wherever possible.
Are there any countries on Earth where the major population centres are connected by such a forlorn road?

I doubt it.

Meanwhile in Scotland, the main north south route, the a9, is being dualled from Perth to Inverness. There's a much smaller proportion of Scotland's population who live in the north than do so in Wales, but the Scots recognise that connecting different parts of their country together is actually quite important.

http://dailywales.net/2014/11/12/norths ... -new-road/
Last edited by Mr Blue Sky on Fri Mar 27, 2015 11:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Jantra

Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 11:54 am

SPACCI

you cannot have devolved road transport but then complain when the cost of building is prohibitively excessive. Either you want devolution or you don't. One of the benefits of being in a union with a larger economy is the transfer of payments between the richer parts and the not so rich parts. Stop whining about lack of development when devolution cannot pay for it. Devolution is what you wanted and as a result you have to accept that Wales is a poor nation that cannot afford the infrastructure developments that became accustomed to when we were not devolved.

As for the M4, I'd say the current issue is due to the fact it is used a a rat run by residents of zooport rather than any other reason. Once you get past Brynglas/Coldra stretch the motorway is fine in either direction. The WG are castigated for trialling the closure of Port Tablot's junctions to see if that benefits traffic flow and yet people still complain. for all their failings, they are at least giving it a go. Why not close a few of the junctions at peak time around zooport and see if that provides a solution...it may well be the answer.

Jantra

Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 11:56 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Jantra wrote:Why would we want a north south road when our economy flows East West?

Even if it did make sense to do so, where would you build it? The obvious choice would be the a470 but having driven that many times I'd say that's a non starter.


"We" want a north-south road so that people in Wales can travel easily to other parts of the country, which is quite difficult, dangerous and slow right now. Bypass every town along the a470 and a483. Straighten the roads wherever possible.
Are there any countries on Earth where the major population centres are connected by such a forlorn road?

I doubt it.

Meanwhile in Scotland, the main north south route, the a9, is being dualled from Perth to Inverness. There's a much smaller proportion of Scotland's population who live in the north than do so in Wales, but the Scots recognise that connecting different parts of their country together is actually quite important.


it may be important to you but its not that important to most people. The A470 is never busy beyond Merthyr and is therefore fit for purpose in its current form. not only that but many towns on its route rely on passing trade for economic activity. You seem to want to destroy that by bypassing these towns altogether. you've not thought this through obviously.

As I've said, I've done it many times and yes it can take 4 hours to get to Bangor but you can get to Wrexham in less time by going via the M5/M6. A road is not needed between the North and South as there is very little traffic flow in either direction. It would be a vanity project to satisfy the nats rather than to bring the people of north and South Wales together.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 12:46 pm

Jantra wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Jantra wrote:Why would we want a north south road when our economy flows East West?

Even if it did make sense to do so, where would you build it? The obvious choice would be the a470 but having driven that many times I'd say that's a non starter.


"We" want a north-south road so that people in Wales can travel easily to other parts of the country, which is quite difficult, dangerous and slow right now. Bypass every town along the a470 and a483. Straighten the roads wherever possible.
Are there any countries on Earth where the major population centres are connected by such a forlorn road?

I doubt it.

Meanwhile in Scotland, the main north south route, the a9, is being dualled from Perth to Inverness. There's a much smaller proportion of Scotland's population who live in the north than do so in Wales, but the Scots recognise that connecting different parts of their country together is actually quite important.


it may be important to you but its not that important to most people. The A470 is never busy beyond Merthyr and is therefore fit for purpose in its current form. not only that but many towns on its route rely on passing trade for economic activity. You seem to want to destroy that by bypassing these towns altogether. you've not thought this through obviously.

As I've said, I've done it many times and yes it can take 4 hours to get to Bangor but you can get to Wrexham in less time by going via the M5/M6. A road is not needed between the North and South as there is very little traffic flow in either direction. It would be a vanity project to satisfy the nats rather than to bring the people of north and South Wales together.


The a470 is busy whenever I drive along it, with congestion in many settlements along the route.

Using your logic, the UK shouldn't have built any bypasses as they take trade away from local businesses!

Have you considered that the A 470 isn't as busy as it could be because people avoid using it, due to it being crap, dangerous and slow?

Jantra

Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 2:11 pm

firstly, I'm not the one suggesting a by pass for Welsh towns. You therefore can't assume I support bypasses all over the UK although whether I do is moot. However there is a very subtle difference between the two.

UK towns that are bypassed tend to be sufficiently large to have their own economy and whilst there may be loss of trade it won't form a significant part of the overall economic output. However, the same cannot be said of the Welsh towns that the A470 cuts through: Brecon, Builth, Rhayader, Llanidloes, Machynlleth, Dolgellau and Llanrwst. The largest town in that lot is Brecon at 7,000 with the rest around 2,000. I'd say they pretty much rely on passing trade to generate economic output. you may disagree, that is your prerogative and I'm not going to argue against it. However, I disagree with it from what i have seen whenever I have driven up to Gwynedd or Aber.
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SPACCI

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Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 2:47 pm

Of course it needs an upgrade but we are using ALL of our money to upgrade it. Personally, I don't think that motorways should be devolved at the moment. We don't have the financial ability to be able to invest in them properly. All other roads fine but we only have about 100 miles of motorway in Wales. 60% of which is dual carriageway

Jantra

Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 2:54 pm

SPACCI wrote:Of course it needs an upgrade but we are using ALL of our money to upgrade it. Personally, I don't think that motorways should be devolved at the moment. We don't have the financial ability to be able to invest in them properly. All other roads fine but we only have about 100 miles of motorway in Wales. 60% of which is dual carriageway


there are 2,300 miles of motorway in the UK. Wales, with 5% of its population should have around 115 miles of that. We're not far short of that figure. considering we only have 3/4 of the UK's average GVA I'd say we're doing pretty good all things considered.

the majority of the German autobahn is dual carriageway. despite this somehow the Germans manage to be the largest economy in Europe with this very obvious (haha) millstone around their neck.

some people just like to moan though even when there is no justification for it.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 3:00 pm

Jantra wrote:firstly, I'm not the one suggesting a by pass for Welsh towns. You therefore can't assume I support bypasses all over the UK although whether I do is moot. However there is a very subtle difference between the two.

UK towns that are bypassed tend to be sufficiently large to have their own economy and whilst there may be loss of trade it won't form a significant part of the overall economic output. However, the same cannot be said of the Welsh towns that the A470 cuts through: Brecon, Builth, Rhayader, Llanidloes, Machynlleth, Dolgellau and Llanrwst. The largest town in that lot is Brecon at 7,000 with the rest around 2,000. I'd say they pretty much rely on passing trade to generate economic output. you may disagree, that is your prerogative and I'm not going to argue against it. However, I disagree with it from what i have seen whenever I have driven up to Gwynedd or Aber.


I don't think that the passing trade in those towns makes up a large proportion of their economies. And people would still visit the towns if they had a bypass - like they already do in Brecon, which seems to do ok for visitors even though it has a bypass!

The fact is that the a470 needs major improvements, but it is in the interests of the UK nationalist parties to keep north and south Wales separate.

You have heard of the term "divide and rule?"

I use the M4 around Newport regularly and agree that improvements are needed. We could have upgraded the southern distributor road and spent the leftover cash on projects like the a470.

The reality is that the construction industry lobbied hard for the M4 option that is to be built, and their friends in the coalition government told Wales that, yes, it could borrow, and that yes, it could invest in huge infrastructure projects - but only if the project was the M4 relief road.

Jantra

Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 3:08 pm

why are you so hell bent on linking North and South Wales when the undeniable truth is that they have always had an east/west axis rather than a north/south axis? you're pushing a nationalist ideology akin to Ieuan Air when there really is no need for it. The A470 is a good road to travel on and is very rarely congested even if it is single carriageway in parts.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: M4 Relief Road

PostFri Mar 27, 2015 4:11 pm

Jantra wrote:why are you so hell bent on linking North and South Wales when the undeniable truth is that they have always had an east/west axis rather than a north/south axis? you're pushing a nationalist ideology akin to Ieuan Air when there really is no need for it. The A470 is a good road to travel on and is very rarely congested even if it is single carriageway in parts.


How do you know that it is rarely congested? How often do you travel on it? I use the m4 outside rush hour all the time and guess what?

It is hardly ever congested.

I'm Welsh and I want to travel around Wales for work and pleasure, something that is quite difficult at the moment because of the poor roads.

My goodness, in ten years plus of "debating" with you, Damian, you have mellowed a little, but questioning why Welsh people would want to travel around Wales more easily is a return to your disagreeable former self.

It is entirely reasonable for Welsh people to want to improve travel links within their country. I find it very difficult to get to meetings and events, anywhere north of Brecon, because the roads are crap.

Surely you can concede that?
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