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New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

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DaiB

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 4:41 pm

TL/DR – sure, different topics are fun; start a thread!


Basically, things you find interesting will be of interest, things you don’t will be dull. There’s no such thing as objectively interesting, or objectively dull.

I’m interested in tall buildings, interested in the engineering involved, the building techniques and the aesthetics. What’s more, my office looks out across the city centre so clearly (to me) to be able to watch daily the progress of two of the tallest buildings to be built in this city simultaneously is of interest, as is the comparative speed of the slipform vs jumpform techniques. Anyone is, of course, free to discuss any other aspect of development or planning here, but I’m not sure it’s necessary to dismiss those which one, personally, does not find interesting. Just start a thread on whatever it is you want to be discussed – easy.

It's also a common fallacy on internet forums to conclude that, simply because someone discusses one particular thing, they don’t value anything else. I (and doubtless many others on here) am extremely interested in streetscapes, liveability, transport – all aspects of good urban design.

I’d be very interested in a debate on the merits / demerits of high rise. We’re not having a debate about that though. URBANO started from a position of ‘tall buildings in Cardiff are negative and those that like to discuss their construction progress are dull’, and chose to illustrate that with supporting arguments which either demonstrate a logical fallacy (some low rise cities are prosperous and attractive, therefore in order to be prosperous and attractive one should turn one’s back on high rise) , just plain incorrect (Bristol doesn’t have tall buildings – when it has several modern-ish ones of a similar scale to Cardiff’s collection of mid-rises, and in fact has an even taller ancient one in the magnificent St Mary Redcliffe), or irrelevant to the topic (why don’t we plant more trees and get rid of bus lanes). There’s little objectivity on display here.

An interesting discussion might be how high rise impacts on the street level experience, based on objective facts and specifics. Wind tunnel effects and inactive street frontage can be negatives – although these are planning issues as much as anything. Aesthetics, cladding choices, colour, sightlines, clustering effects etc. are all other topics up for discussion. I do think though that a discussion of whether it’s reasonable to say ‘high rise makes a place SEEM more vibrant and prosperous’, whilst maybe a fun debate, will ultimately go nowhere as it’s a purely subjective judgement.

Finally – this is a development forum, so many people who find developments interesting and exciting will be attracted to it, and it just so happens that many of the current crop of major developments are high rise ones. It shouldn’t be surprising then that the forum is currently dominated by people who like this kind of building. Plenty of room for other topics to be started though.

URBANO

Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 4:57 pm

All reasonable points, Dai B, reasonably expressed! And Jantra's absolutely right – I was not slagging off the Forum as such (which I've followed with interest for many years) – only that (with some justification I think) it has, of late, been getting bogged down in a litany of building heights, who is going to get to which floor first and so on, which others might find fascinating, but I don't, and which – more importantly –seem to have been crowding out debate on other topics, and so I have simply tried to raise some other issues.Those are the merits /demerits of tall buildings, in particular whether they make a place look exciting or tiresome, and whether or not they contribute to or detract from economic gain, paving materials and treatment, trees, different methods of controlling traffic, the importance of street layouts, and the importance of buildings relating to each other in a coherent way. I'm now far too terrified to pursue any of these issues, so if anyone else wants to run with any of them I will follow them with interest, from my bunker, to which I will now retire for an indefinite period(which could be anything from minutes to years).
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paul cardiffwalesmap

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 5:00 pm

Nicely summarised DaiB!
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paul cardiffwalesmap

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 9:52 pm

Hi Halfnhalf and welcome! Yes you are quite correct that the development in it's very early stages opposite the Golden Cross will be the very (for Cardiff) tall one at 132.5metres and the one under construction in Charles st/bridge st will then be second tallest in the city at just over 80metres. It's hard to imagine anything taller than this customhouse st tower will be constructed in Cardiff in the foreseeable future? Mind you I hope I'm wrong - any chance of a Beetham type tower for Cardiff I wonder.
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Ash

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostMon Nov 20, 2017 11:36 pm

URBANO wrote:All reasonable points, Dai B, reasonably expressed! And Jantra's absolutely right – I was not slagging off the Forum as such (which I've followed with interest for many years) – only that (with some justification I think) it has, of late, been getting bogged down in a litany of building heights, who is going to get to which floor first and so on, which others might find fascinating, but I don't, and which – more importantly –seem to have been crowding out debate on other topics, and so I have simply tried to raise some other issues.Those are the merits /demerits of tall buildings, in particular whether they make a place look exciting or tiresome, and whether or not they contribute to or detract from economic gain, paving materials and treatment, trees, different methods of controlling traffic, the importance of street layouts, and the importance of buildings relating to each other in a coherent way. I'm now far too terrified to pursue any of these issues, so if anyone else wants to run with any of them I will follow them with interest, from my bunker, to which I will now retire for an indefinite period(which could be anything from minutes to years).


All of which is nice, but does nothing to excuse you from simply making things up. I'm still waiting for you admission that your assertion that "Bristol has turned its back on high-rise" was factualy wrong.
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moyceyyy

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 2:55 am

I just like how tall Cardiff is becoming. It doesn't have the gothic architecture of London and Cambridge etc. as it just isn't old and historically rich enough.* As Cardiff doesn't have these buildings, I'm all for an explosion of height if it means the city has a unique identity. :)


*I'm talking before the industrial revolution before some hot-head calls me out over the docks
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Karl

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 10:58 am

URBANO wrote:All reasonable points, Dai B, reasonably expressed! And Jantra's absolutely right – I was not slagging off the Forum as such (which I've followed with interest for many years) – only that (with some justification I think) it has, of late, been getting bogged down in a litany of building heights, who is going to get to which floor first and so on, which others might find fascinating, but I don't, and which – more importantly –seem to have been crowding out debate on other topics, and so I have simply tried to raise some other issues.Those are the merits /demerits of tall buildings, in particular whether they make a place look exciting or tiresome, and whether or not they contribute to or detract from economic gain, paving materials and treatment, trees, different methods of controlling traffic, the importance of street layouts, and the importance of buildings relating to each other in a coherent way. I'm now far too terrified to pursue any of these issues, so if anyone else wants to run with any of them I will follow them with interest, from my bunker, to which I will now retire for an indefinite period(which could be anything from minutes to years).


Urbano you should stick around and illustrate the testicular foirtitude that we know you are capable of. If nothing else you've stimulated some debate regarding tall buildings and roused DaiB from his exile of late. Even Jantra has upped his game in terms of content which is no mean feat (sorry Jantra, couldn't resist :D )

I happen to agree with you in terms of the quality of tall buildings and the general note of caution that you sound. Have we learnt nothing from Ty Pont Haearn I ask. Where we differ is the comparison to Edinburgh, Bristol etc which is as far off the mark as comparisons to New York and Dubai. Also I can't get my head around the general proposition that there is a correlation between low rise buildings and affluence. Where I also agree with you is that we should be building a city of scale and density not isolated statement buildings that have no context.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 11:02 am

moyceyyy wrote:I just like how tall Cardiff is becoming. It doesn't have the gothic architecture of London and Cambridge etc. as it just isn't old and historically rich enough.* As Cardiff doesn't have these buildings, I'm all for an explosion of height if it means the city has a unique identity. :)


*I'm talking before the industrial revolution before some hot-head calls me out over the docks


While I applaud your enthusiasm, Moyceyyy, I have to point out some flaws in your logic. London is not awash with Gothic architecture. Westminster Abbey and a few surviving medieval churches are the only examples that I can think of. There are some great examples of Gothic revival, like the Palace of Westminster and Royal Courts of Justice but London has hundreds of high rises and dozens of skyscrapers (including those under construction) so I don’t understand why you lumped London in with Cambridge while contrasting the two with Cardiff.

There have been some great contributions to this thread. The bottom line is that the south and east half of Cardiff city centre will continue to see high rise buildings developed while the north and west half will be preserved as the “historic bit”. I spend a great deal of time in other UK cities and our “historic bit” - the civic centre, St Mary St/High St, the arcades, the west side of the Hayes and Queen Street is as beautiful as any comparable city. It is just not very extensive. The “new city” being constructed, piecemeal, in the remainder of the city centre will be very impressive as long as the materials used in the mid and high rises are good along with decent public realm and active frontages.

High rises and skyscrapers do impress visitors and investors. They can be jumbled in with the old stuff, like in London, or kept relatively separate, as in Paris. I spent a few days in Lyon last summer (along with many other Welsh people) and travelling through Central Lyon, from east to west, is like travelling through a time machine. Arriving at La Part Dieu you are surrounded by a modern business district with skyscrapers. Walking west towards the city centre you pass through Victorian and Edwardian - Belle Époque - neighbourhoods. Crossing the Rhône one arrives in Presqu’île, the city centre, which is a virtual island between the Rhône and the Saône. This was built between the 16th and 18th centuries. Walking west again you cross the Saône and arrive in Vieux Lyon which is renaissance and medieval.

This is what (on a smaller and less impressive scale)we will end up in with in Cardiff. The “ancient” castle quarter; the Edwardian/Victorian arcade quarter; the more modern shopping area; a large, modern commercial and residential district (extending to the bay) and the Civic Centre.

URBANO

Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 11:10 am

All of which is nice, but does nothing to excuse you from simply making things up. I'm still waiting for you admission that your assertion that "Bristol has turned its back on high-rise" was factualy wrong.

No. I'm right. You're wrong. Go there . And read this http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/busin ... rfed-18432
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Msmurf

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Re: New tower of glass opposit the golden cross

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 11:29 am

I don't know why some posters are so obsessed with comparing Cardiff to Bristol or Manchester or wheerever - all of which have a selection of nice bits and a selection of bad bits. I personally think Cardiff is shaping up nicely with a number of areas developing their own unique feel. The relatively high-rise construction coming up around Central station is turning this previously desolate area into a modern CBD, while the Bute Park-Castle-Cathays Park area is a location that most cities can only dream about and always seems to be full of tourists. The Castle Quarter/Hayes area needs a bit of tidying up and enforcing into a conservation area (with a ban on garish storefronts - especially bookmakers and discount stores) - and once the Rapport/Motorpoint area is demolished and rebuilt I think we will have a city centre that we can be proud of, and which will be head and shoulders above most medium sized British cities.

Seriously - has anyone ever visited Sheffield, Leicester, Southampton, Hull, Middlesborough, etc ???? The tourists aren't exactly flooding in!
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