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Cardiff airport

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Cardiffbay

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostMon Mar 04, 2019 7:14 pm

Lewisbeecham wrote:Flybe are dropping Berlin 100%. There will be some scheduling changes from Winter 2019, it's likely Flybe will cut Munich, Rome, Venice etc and increase the frequency on well performing shorter routes such as Edinburgh, Paris, Dublin etc. Flybe need to save money where they can. It's quite likely a service to Manchester will start to feed into Virgin's long haul network. Expect to be able to book Virgin package holidays from Cardiff to North America etc via Manchester shortly. I'd put good money on Ryanair picking up the Rome, Berlin and Venice routes. Ryanair picked up Barcelona from Vueling when they decided to end the route to concentrate on other routes.

Thomas Cook still have more seats for sale this year compared to last year.

If you ask me if all of the above happened Cardiff Airport is in a much better situation.


The airport is 100% going in the right direction and can be seen as probably on of the welsh governments only success story recently. As for routes I think we will see Ryanair pick up Rome for summer 2020 but not Venice as they currently don’t have a base there also can’t see Berlin by them either as the numbers simply aren’t there. I can see them going for another few routes maybe to compete with Vueling.

Would be good to see if they could get a Florida route back for summer 2020 but realistically I can only see Thomas Cook going for that.

There is defently the chance of something through Manchester coming to feed virgin through Flybe but we will have to see what Virgins plan is for Flybe
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Bishop84

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Mar 05, 2019 1:47 am

Will Air France-KLM upcoming purchase of 30% of Virgin Atlantic have any affect on flights feeding VS services from Manchester?
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Peaky Plaider

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 20, 2019 5:08 am

I have just watched the Welsh Affairs Committee Inquiry into the Devolution Of Air Passenger Duty to Wales and if your inclined to take in interest in Airports, Connectivity, Regional Economy, performance, devolution the WAC Inquiry is compelling watching or reading.

The three main witnesses to the first part of the Inquiry which took place earlier this month 7th March were Debra Berber, CEO Cardiff Airport, David Lees CEO Bristol Airport, Graham Elliot CAD Manchester Airports.

Ok so the APD in the UK has been devolved in Scotland, in Northern Ireland the Long Haul APD has been devolved but England and Wales are legislated by Westminster. The APD in England and Wales is amongst the highest in the world and the highest in Western Europe which makes certain routes and airlines unviable for smaller airports.

The reason that the APD is so high is because most flights in England and Wales are out of the LDN Airports Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, City, Stanstead - all of the LDN Airports I believe are at full capacity.

All three witnesses gave answers that advocated the abolition of what David Lees and Graham Elliot called a crude and coarse tax and David Lees Told the Inquiry that the Trade Group the Airport Operators Association unanimously voted for the complete abolition of the tax.

Strangely and you might say hypocritically David Lees CEO of Bristol Airport does not want the devolution of Airport Tax as it would not be a level playing field for Bristol.

Debra Berber’s riposte to this assumption focused on the regulatory costs in England and Wales that massively favour the medium and larger Airports Whom pay around £5 per passenger but it is as much as £25 for smaller airports and also Air Traffic Comtrol Expenditure is about 25% of a Smaller Airports costs but as little as 1% for bigger airports and in an industry where David Lees said in his final statement that ‘Price is King’ in deciding what Airport a passenger chooses to fly out of - Cardiff Airport is running uphill as Debra Berber pointed out.

So what is the leakage from South Wales passengers to Bristol and from the West Country to Cardiff

These stats are staggering
1.8 million passengers from South Wales fly out of Bristol every year.
Less than 100,000 passengers from the West Country fly out of Cardiff Airport.

This is very much one way traffic in terms of leakage.
This is not a level playing field where price is King.

Incredibly Chris Davies a conservative MP from Mid Wales questioned the Welsh Government’s investment of 50 million into Cardiff Wales Airport and called it a subsidy - yet he made no comment on the 1.5 billion investment that Graham Elliot mentioned for Manchester Airport.

50 Million Cardiff - 1.5 Billion Manchester.

Think of HS2 65 billion - cancellation of electrification of the mainline Railway in South Wales.

How many motorways around Manchester? There are four in Bristol (M4,M5, M32,M49) a single Motorway in the whole of Wales.
So whatever way we look at connectivity and infrastructure Road, Rail, Air - Wales has a massive under investment from Westminster.
Finally what are the benefits of new routes?
According to Graham Elliot there is a high level of benefit for the economy, trade, University Applications, Cultural Exchange...
Do we want all of the above in Wales - Yes.
Do we want Devolution of APD to make routes more viable and competitive in price - Yes.

People of Wales need to wake up
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 20, 2019 12:52 pm

Great post Peaky. A problem on this board and in Cardiff in general is that many people are happy flying from Bristol as it isn’t too far to travel from south east Wales. However anybody living west of Bridgend (around 700000 people) would have a very long journey to Bristol airport. Cardiff airport is the only airport that is within easy access of the Swansea City region, Pembrokeshire and Ceredigion. It is these people and their elected representatives who should be lobbying hard for improvements to Cardiff airport/devolution of APD to Wales.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 20, 2019 6:58 pm

Can't argue with a single part of that post Peaky!
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Msmurf

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 20, 2019 8:58 pm

Top post.
Build it and they will come.
Get it wrong and they will fall off.
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RandomComment

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostThu Mar 21, 2019 5:57 pm

Peaky Plaider wrote:I have just watched the Welsh Affairs Committee Inquiry into the Devolution Of Air Passenger Duty to Wales and if your inclined to take in interest in Airports, Connectivity, Regional Economy, performance, devolution the WAC Inquiry is compelling watching or reading.

The three main witnesses to the first part of the Inquiry which took place earlier this month 7th March were Debra Berber, CEO Cardiff Airport, David Lees CEO Bristol Airport, Graham Elliot CAD Manchester Airports.

Ok so the APD in the UK has been devolved in Scotland, in Northern Ireland the Long Haul APD has been devolved but England and Wales are legislated by Westminster. The APD in England and Wales is amongst the highest in the world and the highest in Western Europe which makes certain routes and airlines unviable for smaller airports.

The reason that the APD is so high is because most flights in England and Wales are out of the LDN Airports Gatwick, Heathrow, Luton, City, Stanstead - all of the LDN Airports I believe are at full capacity.

All three witnesses gave answers that advocated the abolition of what David Lees and Graham Elliot called a crude and coarse tax and David Lees Told the Inquiry that the Trade Group the Airport Operators Association unanimously voted for the complete abolition of the tax.

Strangely and you might say hypocritically David Lees CEO of Bristol Airport does not want the devolution of Airport Tax as it would not be a level playing field for Bristol.

Debra Berber’s riposte to this assumption focused on the regulatory costs in England and Wales that massively favour the medium and larger Airports Whom pay around £5 per passenger but it is as much as £25 for smaller airports and also Air Traffic Comtrol Expenditure is about 25% of a Smaller Airports costs but as little as 1% for bigger airports and in an industry where David Lees said in his final statement that ‘Price is King’ in deciding what Airport a passenger chooses to fly out of - Cardiff Airport is running uphill as Debra Berber pointed out.

So what is the leakage from South Wales passengers to Bristol and from the West Country to Cardiff

These stats are staggering
1.8 million passengers from South Wales fly out of Bristol every year.
Less than 100,000 passengers from the West Country fly out of Cardiff Airport.

This is very much one way traffic in terms of leakage.
This is not a level playing field where price is King.

Incredibly Chris Davies a conservative MP from Mid Wales questioned the Welsh Government’s investment of 50 million into Cardiff Wales Airport and called it a subsidy - yet he made no comment on the 1.5 billion investment that Graham Elliot mentioned for Manchester Airport.

50 Million Cardiff - 1.5 Billion Manchester.

Think of HS2 65 billion - cancellation of electrification of the mainline Railway in South Wales.

How many motorways around Manchester? There are four in Bristol (M4,M5, M32,M49) a single Motorway in the whole of Wales.
So whatever way we look at connectivity and infrastructure Road, Rail, Air - Wales has a massive under investment from Westminster.
Finally what are the benefits of new routes?
According to Graham Elliot there is a high level of benefit for the economy, trade, University Applications, Cultural Exchange...
Do we want all of the above in Wales - Yes.
Do we want Devolution of APD to make routes more viable and competitive in price - Yes.

People of Wales need to wake up


The inquiry actually started much earlier than March. I gave evidence on 8th January!

I'm a bit dubious about the rationale for APD devolution, whether to Scotland or Wales. I think a real debate about how much 'competition' we want via the tax system, versus how much solidarity.

https://www.parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/85fc4da9-4925-4c5a-83ee-9f3b88d6340b
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RandomComment

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostThu Mar 21, 2019 6:05 pm

Msmurf wrote:Top post.


I actually can argue with a lot of the post.

a) First, if costs are higher for smaller airports than bigger ones, then that reflects economic reality - economies of scale, etc. Allowing lower taxes to compensate is not "levelling" the playing-field - it is tilting it.

b) Second, there are strong reasons to tax aviation in some form, as its currently not part of emissions trading schemes, and the fuel isn't taxed. APD (which could be reformed to make it much better) might be a second best option given these other taxes require much more international coordination.

c) I'm not surprised airport operators or airlines are pretty much unanimous in opposing the tax - they are an interest/lobby group. I wouldn't be surprised if power plant operators were unanimous in their opposition to climate change levy.

d) The fact that more people go to Bristol from Wales, than from England to Cardiff is not evidence that the playing field isn't level. Its just evidence that Bristol is outplaying Cardiff.

e) The Manchester investment is based on anticipated economic return. Its not a "subsidy".

f) You haven't proved under-investment in Wales. You need to consider cost-benefit of where to invest in infrastructure. The most egrigious example there though is HS2 - which is a bad value project being pursued as a sexy big project. Much better to spend on a range of smaller local schemes.

g) Bristol has multiple motorways because it is at a cross-roads - East-West and North South. Wales also has 2 - M48 and M4. The A55 expressway is also basically motorway standard for much of its length.

I'm not "talking Wales down", I'm just putting a sceptical eye over things. And trying to take a step back and look at things from a dispassionate position.
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Peaky Plaider

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostMon Mar 25, 2019 9:05 am

I am pleased to have read concurrence with my last post and of course the Contrary view of Random Comment.
Would be grateful if said forum member could confirm that he was a witness in an earlier sitting of the Inquiry.

With regards to point A, and the assertion that APD reflects the economic benefit of England and Wales - I would like to remind everyone who reads this thread that APD in England and Wales is the amongst the highest in the World if not the highest and it is certainly the highest in Europe. Whilst that level of APD might suit the overcongested skies over LDN and the south east where the Airports have the benefits of economy of scale as Random puts it - it is detrimental to all Airports in Wales - a country where we already have devolution - and both the Silk and Holtham commission recommend Devolution of this inordinate Tax. The reduction in this Tax would make routes from Welsh Airports more viable and would be a welcome diversion from the overheated skies of the south east.

With Point B, I must reiterate that APD in England and Wales but not in the other two countries within the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland and Scotland) is the highest in Europe.

Point c, so David Lees wants the absolute abolition of APD - but objects and lobby’s against Wales having APD devolved.
Even thou the Airport he represents has a rumway that is to short for those Airlines that provide a long haul service with Frieght ie Services to the Middle East, India, China...

In a time of Brexit unecertainity the British Government brokered a deal with China in 2018 to increase flights between the two countries by 150%. This was hyped as a gold mine for the Airports and their regions that benefited for the increase. If David Lees was correct in sayiing that Bristol and Cardiff are in the same region - the south west of the UK has not benefited from the increase in trade between one of the globes most relevant economy and the UK.

It is Cardiff Airport that would have to serve as the base for such routes. But with the already sliding scale of economies a disadvantage to this viability - the game that you suggest Bristol are outplaying Cardiff - well this is the next move.
The devolution of APD - the south west of the country would benefit with trade, cultural exchange, University Applications, Face to Face meetings, tourism, property investment, etc...


Point D, Time for us in Wales to start playing the Game and getting our economy energised.

Point E, For Anticipated Economic Return - Read Cardiff Airport...

Point F,
If any member of this forum has visited Cities in the UK like London, Nottingham, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle, Edinburgh they will have observed subterranean rail networks and or Modern tramlines.
All of these significant infrastructure projects would of been secured by money from Westminster.

Where in Wales has there been such investment? A tumble weed question for the Unionists...

Do we have either a single subterranean station or an inch of a modern tramway?

In 2019 we do not have a single inch of working electrified line ( recall the cancellation on the Electrification of the South Wales Mainline in 2017 and indeed the Inquiry into it that brought the likes of Chris Failing Grayling as a witness).

So the rail has undeniable under investment for decades.

The Airports are severely disadvantaged by economy of scale - hence the Inquiry into Devolution of Air Passenger Duty.

And point G, ok you can say the whole of Wales has two Motorways if you include the Dual carriageway that was formerly the M4 before the new Severn Crossing, (I’m not sure what crossroads the M32, M49 sits on that Random writes of maybe it’s The Severn Bridge to Avonmouth crossroads or the M4 to Bristol City Centre Crossroads) but the city of Bristol does not have to maintain those four roads that financial burden falls to Westminster.

I could suggest many such crossroads in Wales...

In terms of economy or business if any company that is looking for relocation of its regional, national, European HQ’s (unlikely in today’s climate but hey) and they stipulate that they have to be within a 5 mile radius of multiple motorways that is Wales off that list.
If your not convinced by the EnglishCity if Bristol having multiple motorways let’s look at Manchester and it’s Seven Motorways M6, M56,M57, M60, M61, M62, M602...

If this is not emphatic enough we can discuss the motorway network around Birmingham Airport.

Of course Random is not talking Wales down.

The UK does not think that Wales deserves a modern tramway, or motorways, or electrification West Of Cardiff....

So with all that the UK - well England, believes that it would be unfair to devolve Air Passenger Duty to Wales as we might gain new routes, new airlines and a dynamic economy...


I think Wales and it’s electorate need to wake up

Yes We Can
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JP-22

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostMon Mar 25, 2019 9:53 am

I am enjoying the discussion. I am no expert, but I agree with Peaky Plaider. Sound arguments.
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