It is currently Wed Oct 23, 2019 2:45 pm


Cardiff airport

if it's about Cardiff.. Sport, Entertainment, Transportation, Business, Development Projects, Leisure, Eating, Drinking, Nightlife, Shopping, Train Spotting! etc.. then we want it here!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Lewisbeecham

  • Posts: 379
  • Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:44 am

Re: Cardiff airport

PostMon Mar 25, 2019 12:42 pm

Fantastic post from Peaky Plaider, and I couldn't agree more. Nice to see some intellectual debating for once with no name calling etc.
Offline
User avatar

Msmurf

  • Posts: 155
  • Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:21 am

Re: Cardiff airport

PostMon Mar 25, 2019 5:32 pm

I agree - Good intelligent points and well argued (even though I am not in full agreement with them all).
Build it and they will come.
Get it wrong and they will fall off.
Offline

RandomComment

  • Posts: 853
  • Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:50 pm

Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Mar 26, 2019 5:09 pm

Peaky Plaider wrote:
With regards to point A, and the assertion that APD reflects the economic benefit of England and Wales - I would like to remind everyone who reads this thread that APD in England and Wales is the amongst the highest in the World if not the highest and it is certainly the highest in Europe. Whilst that level of APD might suit the overcongested skies over LDN and the south east where the Airports have the benefits of economy of scale as Random puts it - it is detrimental to all Airports in Wales - a country where we already have devolution - and both the Silk and Holtham commission recommend Devolution of this inordinate Tax. The reduction in this Tax would make routes from Welsh Airports more viable and would be a welcome diversion from the overheated skies of the south east.

With Point B, I must reiterate that APD in England and Wales but not in the other two countries within the United Kingdom (Northern Ireland and Scotland) is the highest in Europe.



First, my point is that language about "levelling the playing field" is misleading. Ultimately, the aim is to "tilt" the playing field to give Wales a competitive advantage vis a vis Bristol. That can be a legitimate goal from the perspective of narrow Welsh self interest. But given how much Wales relies on fiscal transfers from England and both the government and Plaid pushes the idea of solidarity and the "sharing union" (needs based funding, Barnett reform), etc., its a bit of a tricky position to be in philosophically - unless one's philosophy is simply "Cymru First!".

On the level of APD, there is evidence that the rate of APD is above the level justified by Carbon emissions. That justifies a lower rate nationally though.

You could also consider variable rates related to other externalities like noise and NO2, which would probably justify higher rates in London and lower ones for places like Cardiff - but also Bristol, Newcastle, Liverpool, Southampton, Southend etc. So I think things like congestion of S.E airspace, noise, etc make a case for variation across the UK, but not devolution only to Wales, Scotland, NI. Indeed if Cardiff airport was still in Tremorfa, it would have meant issues like noise and pollution would probably make a lower rate of APD less good idea than in Bristol.

Scotland still has UK rates of APD for now - given EU state aid issues, I think. NI has the same rates for short haul, but a zero rate for long haul.

Peaky Plaider wrote:
Point c, so David Lees wants the absolute abolition of APD - but objects and lobby’s against Wales having APD devolved.
Even thou the Airport he represents has a rumway that is to short for those Airlines that provide a long haul service with Frieght ie Services to the Middle East, India, China...

In a time of Brexit unecertainity the British Government brokered a deal with China in 2018 to increase flights between the two countries by 150%. This was hyped as a gold mine for the Airports and their regions that benefited for the increase. If David Lees was correct in sayiing that Bristol and Cardiff are in the same region - the south west of the UK has not benefited from the increase in trade between one of the globes most relevant economy and the UK.

It is Cardiff Airport that would have to serve as the base for such routes. But with the already sliding scale of economies a disadvantage to this viability - the game that you suggest Bristol are outplaying Cardiff - well this is the next move.
The devolution of APD - the south west of the country would benefit with trade, cultural exchange, University Applications, Face to Face meetings, tourism, property investment, etc...



This is effectively Cardiff Airport and to some extent the Welsh Govt's case - that devolution would benefit the the Bristol area too, as Cardiff and Bristol airports aren't really competitors, more complements. I'm not sure I really buy that given the vast majority of travel is short haul, and Bristol and Cardiff can both offer such services.

Freight is not subject to APD (it should be reformed so that it is a per-flight tax, and covers freight - but thats a different story), so there is nothing stopping routes focusing on freight from doing well at airports like Cardiff. Of course APD does apply to joint Freight-Passenger flights. But I'm sorry its not APD that stops demand for Cardiff - India, Cardiff - China routes. Its just lack of demand. Even London struggles to maintain that many routes. And again the reason isn't really APD (routes to/from developing countries has higher-than-average business/ngo custom which is a lot less price sensitive). Its lack of freight - which is vital for these sorts of routes. The biggest carriers to Africa are KLM and Air Brussels because Rotterdam and Antwerp are hubs of imports and exports. So their planes can be packed full of freight.

Peaky Plaider wrote:
Point D, Time for us in Wales to start playing the Game and getting our economy energised.



See above. This is a dangerous game given how much Wales relies on fiscal transfers from England.


Peaky Plaider wrote:
Point E, For Anticipated Economic Return - Read Cardiff Airport...



I have. I treat both the Bristol airport analysis and the Cardiff airport analysis with a shovel full of salt. They're largely lobbying exercises, with selected analyses with specially chosen assumptions to make the case they want. Its why I don't work for an economic consultancy. You're "sums for hire".

Peaky Plaider wrote:
Point F,
If any member of this forum has visited Cities in the UK like London, Nottingham, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Sheffield, Newcastle, Edinburgh they will have observed subterranean rail networks and or Modern tramlines.
All of these significant infrastructure projects would of been secured by money from Westminster.

Where in Wales has there been such investment? A tumble weed question for the Unionists...

Do we have either a single subterranean station or an inch of a modern tramway?

In 2019 we do not have a single inch of working electrified line ( recall the cancellation on the Electrification of the South Wales Mainline in 2017 and indeed the Inquiry into it that brought the likes of Chris Failing Grayling as a witness).

So the rail has undeniable under investment for decades.

The Airports are severely disadvantaged by economy of scale - hence the Inquiry into Devolution of Air Passenger Duty.

And point G, ok you can say the whole of Wales has two Motorways if you include the Dual carriageway that was formerly the M4 before the new Severn Crossing, (I’m not sure what crossroads the M32, M49 sits on that Random writes of maybe it’s The Severn Bridge to Avonmouth crossroads or the M4 to Bristol City Centre Crossroads) but the city of Bristol does not have to maintain those four roads that financial burden falls to Westminster.

I could suggest many such crossroads in Wales...

In terms of economy or business if any company that is looking for relocation of its regional, national, European HQ’s (unlikely in today’s climate but hey) and they stipulate that they have to be within a 5 mile radius of multiple motorways that is Wales off that list.
If your not convinced by the EnglishCity if Bristol having multiple motorways let’s look at Manchester and it’s Seven Motorways M6, M56,M57, M60, M61, M62, M602...

If this is not emphatic enough we can discuss the motorway network around Birmingham Airport.



London is just a different kettle of fish - and the underground is (now at least) self-funding. London buses are the subsidy muncher!

Of the others, many were actually predominantly locally funded, and based on networks originally largely built by the private sector, as far as I know - by the old metropolitan county councils. With the new ones, the funding is quite mixed - usually a mix of central government (via DfT), and borrowing (e.g. from public works loan board or EU) that has to be paid off by local council taxpayers or passengers.

Wales' share of capital spending for rail is low - it basically reflects passenger number shares, rather than population shares. I think a case can be made this is fair - but also that it doesn't do enough to address regional inequalities (but that would also mean shifting more to the North away from big London schemes).

Its share of capital spending for roads - which is devolved - is actually reasonably high. Its just Wales is much smaller, so of course there are going to be many more and bigger schemes to point to in England. But we've had some big ones in Wales, like the Heads of the Valleys road, work on the A55, and even schemes like the Port Talbot distributor cost close to £100 million.

But to work out whether Wales is "hard done by", its best to look at overall capital (and indeed day-to-day) spending by the government, and how that compares to tax revenues.

This shows that Wales gets the equivalent of 90% of the average capital spending per person, and about 110% of the average day-to-day spending, or about 108% overall - after contributing between 70 and 75% of the average tax revenues per person. Estimates are for a fiscal transfer of around £12 billion, or almost £4000 per person in Wales from taxpayers elsewhere in the UK. Thats also why I think unpicking the UK's fiscal system is very very risky for Wales.

Peaky Plaider wrote:So with all that the UK - well England, believes that it would be unfair to devolve Air Passenger Duty to Wales as we might gain new routes, new airlines and a dynamic economy...

I think Wales and it’s electorate need to wake up

Yes We Can


The Welsh electorate does have big questions in front of it. It needs to decide how much risk sharing and redistribution it wants with the rest of the UK. What I don't think it should be encouraged to do is to try to have its cake, and eat it. We've recently been seeing where that leads us to...
Offline

Peaky Plaider

  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:48 am

Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Mar 26, 2019 9:27 pm

Having just read the reply from Random Comment I instantly get the impression that none of the poignant questions are answered.

Do we have a modern tramway anywhere in Wales like what is in LDN or the English West Midlands or the English East Midlands or the North West Of England or the North Of England or Scotland?

Do we have a single inch of electrified Railway line in Wales in 2019?
Not a single inch Random -Nothing, Nix ,Nada,
From London to the west coast of Scotland - electrified...
from London to the east coast of Scotland -electrified...



We have a single motorway in Wales the M4? The M49 is just an obsolete stretch of M4...

The City Of Manchester alone has seven Motorways....

The Devolution of Air Passenger Duty is nothing to do with England....
It is about making Airlines and Routes Viable in Wales to help the economy which has taken a thrashing time and time again from the Westminster Government.

Infrastructure in Wales whether Road,Rail or Air has had minimal investment for decades...

The London Underground has had continual investment for over 100 years...
The Elizabeth Line currently being built cost at least £15 Billion pounds...
There are already 270 stations on the London Underground....
The rebuild of Tottenham Court Road Station cost over 1 Billion alone..


Again Random can you tell me which of the modern tramways in Edinburgh, Nottingham, Sheffield, Manchester, Croydon, West Midlands were locally funded?

What about the Metro in Newcastle? The Subway in Glasgow? Were these locally funded?

Some people say that Wales Can’t
Others are saying
Yes Wales Can
Offline

Mr Blue Sky

  • Posts: 394
  • Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:55 pm

Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 27, 2019 9:35 am

I’m a long time member of Plaid. I’ve been arguing with Random Comment about underinvestment in Wales for 15 years, on this board. He doesn’t see our point as he is a U.K. nationalist. It’s as simple as that.

My post earlier about the distance everyone west of Bridgend has to travel to access an airport other than Cardiff is very pertinent. Is there a major city in the U.K. as badly connected as Swansea? If motorways, electrified rail and air are taken into consideration then only Plymouth is a contender for the wooden spoon, but at least they can choose between Exeter and Newquay airports.
Offline

Ash

  • Posts: 887
  • Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2014 12:28 pm

Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 27, 2019 9:45 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote: Is there a major city in the U.K. as badly connected as Swansea?


Simple comparison. Once electrification is complete - Swansea will still have only one train per hour to London, Cardiff will have three at peak times, Bristol will have seven. The lack of transport investment in Wales by succesive UK Governments is truly shocking.
Offline

Peaky Plaider

  • Posts: 10
  • Joined: Sat Apr 28, 2018 6:48 am

Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 27, 2019 9:59 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:I’m a long time member of Plaid. I’ve been arguing with Random Comment about underinvestment in Wales for 15 years, on this board. He doesn’t see our point as he is a U.K. nationalist. It’s as simple as that.

My post earlier about the distance everyone west of Bridgend has to travel to access an airport other than Cardiff is very pertinent. Is there a major city in the U.K. as badly connected as Swansea? If motorways, electrified rail and air are taken into consideration then only Plymouth is a contender for the wooden spoon, but at least they can choose between Exeter and Newquay airports.


I concur.

Wales has a whole is disconnected in many ways.

I find it hard to swallow pardon the (pun) when we are told that Wales cannot have it’s cake and eat it.

65 billion for HS2 - 15 Billion for Cross Rail...
Comapared with Cancellation of Electrification of Mainline West Of Cardiff...

7 motorways in Manchester - One Motorway in Wales.

1.5 Billion Investment for Manchester Airport - 50 Million (subsidy for Cardiff Airport).

For every 18 Air Passnegers from Wales using Bristol Airport
Less than a single passenger from the West Country using Cardiff Airport

There are more than 200 flights out of UK Airports for every flight out of Welsh Airports...

The Devolution of a Tax that is generating 6 million annually ( simple enough to achieve) - you can’t have your cake and eat it...

It is time to say the confectionary for cakes has been in other parts of the UK for decades... English Cities are having lashing odf sweet banquets whilst we are starved....
‘Qu ils mangent de la Brioche’... Queen Marie Antoinette
Offline

solaris

  • Posts: 39
  • Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:43 pm

Re: Cardiff airport

Offline

RandomComment

  • Posts: 853
  • Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:50 pm

Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 27, 2019 1:54 pm

Peaky Plaider wrote: Having just read the reply from Random Comment I instantly get the impression that none of the poignant questions are answered.


First, I'm not sure Peaky's questions are poignant. I think they are rather simplistic and focuses on how things are classified - e.g. motorway versus dual carriageway. For example, A470 to Merthyr, much of the A55, parts of the A465, much of the A4232, the Eastern Avenue section of the A48 (and A48m) basically provide the same function to more or less the same standard.

Moreover, they don't really make realistic comparisons. Greater Manchester is a major conurbation - much larger than anything we have in Wales. It also sits on an East-West route between Liverpool and Hull, and just off a major North/South route (M6), to which it has spurs.

Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Dorset have only 1 motorway - the M5. Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, only has a bit of the M25 (which is really a London motorway) and the M11 in the south west corner. The North East of England has some A1(m) and and a small inner ring-road in Newcastle that has confusingly been given M designation. Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire have just the M1.

Wales doesn't have many motorways, but neither do many other parts of the country. Motorways are there to serve cross-country journeys between places with sizeable populations and significant demand (e.g. south west to Midlands, Midlands to North West, London to the Midlands and North, North West to North East) or areas with high population density. Its only really South Wales and to some extent the North Wales corridors that really satisfy that in Wales - and both have motorway or more-or-less motorway standard routes.

On the funding of rail:
- Glasgow Metro was initially built privately and opened in 1896 and was then taken over by local government
- Edinburgh tram was paid for by a combination of Scottish Govt funding and borrowing by Edinburgh council. Its extension is being funded by borrowing and a transfer from Lothian buses
- Tyne and Wear metro used old lines with the cost of the conversion being 70% funded by DfT and 30% by local sources including borrowing
- Manchester metrolink has been funded by a mix of government grant, council tax (via levies on district councils), borrowing, and contributions from private developers/organisations (e.g. Manchester Airport).

I could look at more, but I think it serves my point. Yes the UK government has often contributed, sometimes considerably. But local sources have also been important too.

And finally I don't think you addressed my pertinent point. That to think about whether Wales is "hard done by", you need to look at tax and spending in the round. Currently, Wales gets £12 billion more spent on it than it pays in taxes. In that respect, it shares much in common with other poorer parts of the UK - like N Ireland, North East England, etc. Wales accounts for about half the UK budget deficit, with 5% of the population (to be fair, most areas outside London and the South East contribute to that deficit).

A case can be made for Welsh independence - based on culture/nationalism; based on a belief that in the longer-term it could provide a catalyst for a more dynamic and prosperous Wales. But don't pretend that it wouldn't be an incredible financial wrench that would mean Wales would have to live within its means - rather than operating in a fiscal union that allows Wales to basically live beyond them at the moment.

Mr Blue Sky wrote:I’m a long time member of Plaid. I’ve been arguing with Random Comment about underinvestment in Wales for 15 years, on this board. He doesn’t see our point as he is a U.K. nationalist. It’s as simple as that.


I'm neither, actually. I happen to feel pretty strongly Welsh, British and to an extent European. But I dislike nationalism as it often involves a bit of a chip on the shoulder, which means one closes ones eyes to facts, figures, debate, etc.

And I actually do listen to the points you make - I just happen to disagree with them, and provide evidence as to why I disagree. Usually related to economics and tax/spending.
Offline

RandomComment

  • Posts: 853
  • Joined: Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:50 pm

Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Mar 27, 2019 2:06 pm

And of course, we live in a post-evidence world. Cite a few anecdotes. Make a few uncomparable comparisons. Make some numbers up. And hey presto, you'll have an emotive story to sell to the public. And something to print on the side of a bus.
PreviousNext

Return to Cardiff Wales Map forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 5 guests