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Cardiff airport

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RandomComment

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostMon Apr 01, 2019 6:43 pm

My last reply on this, because its getting tiresome.

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Investment in public transport in Wales has been woefully inadequate for decades. That was my point. Since 1999 it may have been on par or very slightly above that of English regions - if London is excluded - but, then again, why don’t we exclude Cardiff from the Welsh figures?



Urgh. Because it makes sense to compare more comparable areas, esp. when you think there are good reasons to spend more in certain areas than others.

Let me flip it around. Could we conclude by comparing spending in Wales with England as a whole that Wales is unfairly "overfunded" compared to England because spending per person has been 10% higher in Wales? No - that clearly be bonkers because needs differ.

I'm excluding London for this reason. Its so uncomparable to Wales (and indeed the rest of the UK) in this instance on the factors driving needs for transport infrastructure spending - population density, commuter flows, land prices, etc - that it just makes more sense to exclude it.

It doesn't make sense to exclude Cardiff on the same basis - it just isn't that different to other places in Wales (Swansea) and certainly other places in the UK

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
The West Yorkshire Metro was not just a rebranding - I lived there when it occurred. The Airedale and Wharfedale rail lines were electrified, there was a massive investment in Leeds station (and also in Bradford Forster Square and Shipley stations).



That happened but isn't listed as part of the metro scheme - which involved the (re)opening of some stations and the branding of the network.

Valley lines basically operate as a metro rail system, and its planned to be electrified. And the more I've thought about it, the less unfair the proposed funding arrangements seem.

So it might seem unfair the UK government is asking the Welsh Govt to pay the bulk of the Valleylines electrification costs - rail infrastructure is not devolved. However, rail operational subsidy is. And one of the big benefits of electrification is reduced subsidy costs. So if the UK government paid in full, the savings on operational costs would accrue to the Welsh Govt without them having paid towards the investment costs. In contrast for investment in the English network, both the investment costs and operational savings would ultimately accrue to the UK government. In this context, asking the Welsh Govt to contribute helps ensure in both instances, contributions are being made by those who ultimately save in subsidy costs.

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
If you are going to exclude English schemes part-funded by European money then you must also exclude the Ebbw Vale rail line, the Port Talbot Expressway and all of the bypasses on the A470/A483.



I wasn't saying they should be excluded. I was basically pointing out most schemes involve a mix of financing sources - so its not all the supposedly machievelian workings of Westminster.



Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Despite having a ready-made rail network that was ripe for modernisation/electrification Cardiff did not have the investment that similar sized cities such as Nottingham and Sheffield received.



You just haven't proved that. You have just pointed out some shiny things other cities have - often largely funded by local sources or European sources, rather than UK government money - that Cardiff doesn't. Well why didn't Cardiff region raise the revenues locally via council tax and borrowing? Why didn't EU money get spent on these shiny things in S. E Wales given we got so much more of it? Indeed, what was the actual total investment in the S. E Wales area compared to these other areas? Nothing here, apart from accusations and assertions. For the period we do have figures for - post 1999 - not exactly a tiny time period - the figures actually show the opposite of what you assert.

And yes I am making some assertions too. But I think you need evidence to "prove" unfairness, rather than "disprove" it.

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
And going back to the lack of connectiveness of Swansea, if you compare it to other U.K. cities it is clear that it is the least-well connected city in the U.K.

For example, Stoke is close to Mcr Airport and has an electrified rail link to London that will reach Euston in 1 hour 20 minutes on the fastest trains. Hull has its own airport, as does Middlesbrough. Blackpool has an airport and a tram system. Leicester is very close to East Midlands airport.

The worst-connected cities in the U.K. are Dundee, Plymouth and Swansea. But Dundee is the same distance from Edinburgh airport as Swansea is from Cardiff Airport - the difference being that Edinburgh is a major international airport, so Dundonians need travel no further. Unlike the poor Jacks who must endure an 85 mile trip to get to the nearest decent airport, Bristol. As for Plymouth, its residents can choose between Exeter and Newquay airports which both offer similar flight destinations to those of Cardiff and are both only very slightly further away from Plymouth than Swansea is from Cardiff.

So there you have it. Cardiff/Newport/east and central Valleys is the only major metropolitan region in the U.K. with no modern metro, no electrified inter city train lines and no decent airport. On top of that Swansea is the worst-connected city in the U.K.

If it looks like underinvestment, smells like underinvestment and walks like underinvestment it probably is underinvestment. But I guess that you will probably - nay certainly - disagree.


You seem to be moving the goalposts here. Swansea residents have to travel 85 miles to Bristol airport for decent flights - yet apparently the residents of Plymouth can get them from Newquay or Exeter which handle fewer than Cardiff.

So actually residents of Plymouth need to travel to Bristol (109 miles) for a decent service. Residents of Bournemouth need to travel for longer (to Bristol or Gatwick) despite a shorter distance. Norwich residents need to travel 86 miles to Stansted.

What do these cities have in common? They are sort of geographically peripheral. Not big enough to support a decent airport of their own, and a fair away from somewhere that is.

And airports in this country have been owned by local governments or private sector companies - so Swansea council or Welsh councils could invest in airports if they want.

I'm got nothing against proud Welsh patriotism - or even nationalism. But when the case seems to rest of the idea of financial ill treatment - which just isn't supported by a clear-lensed analysis - it actually does a disservice to Wales. As someone actually very proud to be Welsh, I just find it depressing that a more positive case for Wales taking more governmental initiative cannot be made.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Cardiff airpor

PostMon Apr 01, 2019 9:18 pm

Haha you think I’m moving the goalposts? I guess that you must have skipped sport at school, as well as debating. To ignore any investment prior to 1999 - when Whitehall was entirely responsible for rubber-stamping large projects - is laughable.

You are not comparing like with like. Taking either south Wales, where 2.1 million people live in an area of around 1200 square miles, or south east Wales, where 1.4 million people live in 850 square miles, it is clear that these post-industrial areas are much more similar to areas like Tyne and Wear, Teeside and South Yorkshire (in terms of population density and urban agglomeration) than they are to Plymouth or Bournemouth.

Bournemouth has an electrified rail line to London, and it is 79 miles from Bristol Airport compared to Swansea’s 85. I agree that Plymouth is poorly connected. But of Wales three major cities, all of them are more poorly connected/have worse public transport than virtually any, and certainly the average comparable English/Scottish cities/urban areas/metro areas. Wales’ cities are, on average, less well-connected with poorer public transport provision.

You know this to be true but just can’t admit it.

Don’t you wonder why, in terms of a local electrified rail network, Tyne and Wear (population 1.1 million), Merseyside (population 1.4 million) and West Yorkshire (population 2 million) received the investment in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s whereas Cardiff/Newport/SE Wales (population 1.4 million) got absolutely nothing?

I can just see you representing Wales in post-Brexit negotiations for replacement funding for infrastructure “Ok, I’m now bending over...alright then...just a little further”.
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Re: Cardiff airpor

PostTue Apr 02, 2019 1:01 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:Haha you think I’m moving the goalposts? I guess that you must have skipped sport at school, as well as debating. To ignore any investment prior to 1999 - when Whitehall was entirely responsible for rubber-stamping large projects - is laughable.

You are not comparing like with like. Taking either south Wales, where 2.1 million people live in an area of around 1200 square miles, or south east Wales, where 1.4 million people live in 850 square miles, it is clear that these post-industrial areas are much more similar to areas like Tyne and Wear, Teeside and South Yorkshire (in terms of population density and urban agglomeration) than they are to Plymouth or Bournemouth.

Bournemouth has an electrified rail line to London, and it is 79 miles from Bristol Airport compared to Swansea’s 85. I agree that Plymouth is poorly connected. But of Wales three major cities, all of them are more poorly connected/have worse public transport than virtually any, and certainly the average comparable English/Scottish cities/urban areas/metro areas. Wales’ cities are, on average, less well-connected with poorer public transport provision.

You know this to be true but just can’t admit it.

Don’t you wonder why, in terms of a local electrified rail network, Tyne and Wear (population 1.1 million), Merseyside (population 1.4 million) and West Yorkshire (population 2 million) received the investment in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s and 1990s whereas Cardiff/Newport/SE Wales (population 1.4 million) got absolutely nothing?

I can just see you representing Wales in post-Brexit negotiations for replacement funding for infrastructure “Ok, I’m now bending over...alright then...just a little further”.


What is your obsession with electrified rail? There are many other ways governments invest - and as I said the WDA had a much bigger budget than anything elsewhere in the UK. Oh but of course, we can interpret that as the UK government giving money to its friends right, rather than helping Wales?

And should Bristol also feel aggrieved as it gets very little government investment. It hasn't got electrified rail (yet) either, doesn't get WDA money, hasn't really benefited from recent expansions in road infrastructure. It hasn't get the set of urban train stations Cardiff has. Yes, it has a decent airport, but that owes nothing to government largessse.

Of your examples, Sheffield doesn't have electrified rail. Neither does Teeside. Nor does Leicester or Derby or Nottingham.

You think I refuse to admit Wales gets a raw deal in the UK. I think you've failed to prove that and fail to recognise that just on a balance of spending versus revenue basis, we actually do pretty well compared to other similarly deprived areas (the North East) and get a substantial Union Dividend overall (more spending than tax).

I'm happy to be persuaded that an independent Wales has policy innovations up its sleeve to grow the economy enough to offset the loss of fiscal transfers from the rest of the UK (i.e. London and South East).

I'm not going to listen to whining about the monsters over the border, when its just not backed up.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Apr 02, 2019 1:27 pm

For someone who keeps repeating that they won't be commenting further on this thread you certainly are full of baloney. Sheffield and Nottingham have a tram system. Leicester and Derby are close to a major airport. Middlesbrough has its own airport.

Electrified rail upgrades generally go hand in hand with improvements to track, signalling, rolling stock and stations - as you well know. These all contribute to increased use by travellers, reduced journey times and prove more attractive to inwards investment. This is a thread about airports which has grown into.a discussion about investment in transport/public transport. By widening it to include spending on benefits or the WDA you aren't just muddying the waters, you are polluting them with horsesh*t.

It is clear that Cardiff, Newport, Swansea and the Valleys, despite having a population of 2 million, haven't received the same level of investment as similar areas such as Tyne and Wear, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire and Merseyside. That is a fact and it is you that is living in a post-evidence world if you fail to recognise or accept this.
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durhamcowboy

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Apr 03, 2019 7:59 am

Rumours today that FlyBe will Leave Cardiff at the end of the summer.
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Lewisbeecham

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Apr 03, 2019 8:45 am

Apparently staff were emailed last night about the ejet closure at Cardiff. Ryanair also have an announcement today for Cardiff, timely.
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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Apr 03, 2019 12:48 pm

Good to get back to airport news (and away from the unsubstantiated claims about investment, and outright lies about overall levels of government spending), despite relatively bad news:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47797738

Not confirmation of closure, but certainly of cut backs.

I've been a bit worried that the purchase by Virgin could be bad news for Cardiff - it doesn't feed into any of the Virgin hubs (London Heathrow or Gatwick, or Manchester), and its not clear there is a huge market for such links (there might be demand for onward long-haul, but the route's viability would depend on short-haul journeys too).

From a business perspective, if I were the new owners (Virgin and Eddie Stobart), I would concentrate on routes that could generate traffic to London both for short-haul (e.g. Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, maybe even Newquay) and to feed onto the long haul routes. That'd be bad news for Cardiff.
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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Apr 03, 2019 1:11 pm

RandomComment wrote:Good to get back to airport news (and away from the unsubstantiated claims about investment, and outright lies about overall levels of government spending), despite relatively bad news:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47797738

Not confirmation of closure, but certainly of cut backs.

I've been a bit worried that the purchase by Virgin could be bad news for Cardiff - it doesn't feed into any of the Virgin hubs (London Heathrow or Gatwick, or Manchester), and its not clear there is a huge market for such links (there might be demand for onward long-haul, but the route's viability would depend on short-haul journeys too).

From a business perspective, if I were the new owners (Virgin and Eddie Stobart), I would concentrate on routes that could generate traffic to London both for short-haul (e.g. Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, maybe even Newquay) and to feed onto the long haul routes. That'd be bad news for Cardiff.


Absolutely. Although Flybe is cutting it's base, it doesn't mean they won't fly routes from Cardiff using Q400 Dash 8 aircraft. I suspected they may start a Cardiff - Manchester route to feed into Virgin's long haul operations from there. Time will tell when the winter timetable is announced. Despite Flybe having a 10 year contract with Cardiff Airport this means nothing under the new consortium ownership.

In the best case scenario here I would hope to see Flybe retain the key domestic routes, so that's Edinburgh and Glasgow, perhaps Manchester? Ryanair could take over Dublin, Belfast and Paris. Ryanair operate larger aircraft, which would mean lower prices and more passengers (if they can attract capacity).

Feel for the Flybe staff, and the wider airport staff as this is a major set back from a good few years of growth.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Apr 03, 2019 2:48 pm

RandomComment wrote:Good to get back to airport news (and away from the unsubstantiated claims about investment, and outright lies about overall levels of government spending), despite relatively bad news:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47797738

Not confirmation of closure, but certainly of cut backs.

I've been a bit worried that the purchase by Virgin could be bad news for Cardiff - it doesn't feed into any of the Virgin hubs (London Heathrow or Gatwick, or Manchester), and its not clear there is a huge market for such links (there might be demand for onward long-haul, but the route's viability would depend on short-haul journeys too).

From a business perspective, if I were the new owners (Virgin and Eddie Stobart), I would concentrate on routes that could generate traffic to London both for short-haul (e.g. Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Belfast, maybe even Newquay) and to feed onto the long haul routes. That'd be bad news for Cardiff.


What outright lies? And “bad news for Cardiff”? Maybe APD should be devolved...oh wait, no, you scuppered that.
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Lewisbeecham

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Apr 03, 2019 3:36 pm

https://flybe.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1592

Flybe has confirmed it will be closing down it's Cardiff base post summer 2019 schedule. However, it will STILL be operating flights in and out of Cardiff using the smaller 78-seat Q400 Dash 8 aircrafts. The crew will be based from other airports.

FLYBE ANNOUNCES BASE CHANGES

Airline to stop jet flights from Cardiff, Doncaster, Exeter and Norwich, but will continue with Q400 flying
Current flight cancellations are unrelated to this decision
Flybe today announces the details of a base review as part of its previously stated strategy to reduce its aircraft fleet and return all of its 118-seat Embraer 195 aircraft to its lessors, of which six will be returned this financial year.

The 78-seat Bombardier Q-400 will continue as the backbone of Flybe’s network, being the ideal aircraft for the regional network it provides to connect the UK and the UK regions with the rest of the world.

The following airports are impacted:

Exeter - following discussions with the airport, Flybe will cease jet operations with effect from the start of the 2019-20 Winter programme. The last jet flights will therefore operate on Saturday 26th October 2019. This will not impact the Q400 operated schedule out of Exeter, nor the existing base structure

Norwich - as with Exeter, Flybe will cease jet operations with effect from the start of the 2019-20 Winter programme. This will not affect services at Norwich operated by Flybe’s franchise partner, Eastern Airways.

Cardiff & Doncaster - Flybe will cease jet operations out of these airports with effect from the start of the 2019-20 Winter programme. Flybe currently has a base at both airports to service its jet services. Once the jet flights cease Flybe will close these bases, but will continue to offer flights to and from both Cardiff and Doncaster on Q400 with aircraft and crew flying from other bases.

Flybe would like to stress that the current flight cancellations being experienced are not linked to this decision and are the result of a combination of other factors.

Flybe CEO, Christine Ourmières-Widener said:

“Our fleet reduction has always been core to improving our profitability. We are committed to assisting all our affected employees across the impacted Flybe bases. We remain fully committed to Exeter, Cardiff and Doncaster airports and will continue to offer a comprehensive choice of regional and European destinations operated by our 78-seat Bombardier Q400 aircraft”
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