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The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostSat Aug 19, 2017 10:36 pm

Jantra wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:
:D
I'm back in Penarth now mate. How's Cogan working out for you?

You mean penarth marina? :mrgreen:


It's pronounced Lower Cogan, or Cogan Isel in Welsh.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 5:27 pm

Jantra wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:I'm afraid your attitude is akin to language fascism. The people who live in a place get to pronounce it how they want to, not some outsiders with a superior attitude.
^^^^this

It's canton


So what about Welsh speakers who live in such places? Do they have to pronounce it in a way that sounds wrong to their ears because you don't like the Welsh pronunciation?

Living in Cwmbran, a town where every area has a solely Welsh name but very few Welsh speakers to pronounce them Im well used to the 'bastardisation' of such pronunciations. Henllys sounds like 'Henlas', Pontnewydd is 'Pontnewid', Llanyrafon is 'Lanyravon' (or 'Lanny') and as for Croesyceiliog...well let's just say that whoever thought that was a good name in a town full of monoglots must have been crazy :)

But it would be insane for me to go around pronouncing them in those ways, even though that's what comes normal to most of my neighbours. It would mean I would have to switch off the part of my brain that actually reads everyday words like 'Pont' and 'Newydd' and instead teach myself to mispronounce them. Can you not see how bizzare that would feel?

And that's in Cwmbran, where there are very few Welsh speakers. Pontcanna has a ton of them.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 5:43 pm

As for the topic in general, what's really weird is that, in the non-digital World, I never seem to meet people with the anti-Welsh language attitudes that a couple of people here have. They seem to think they're some silent majority angry at having Welsh forced down their throats (whilst in the very next post gloat about how they 'never come across it in my everyday life' without seeing the contradiction in their arguments!). But outside of forums like this, Twitter and the letter pages of the Western Mail they barely seem to exist.

I live in one of the least Welsh speaking parts of Wales, and yet I never come across any hostility like what I can read here. The general attitude is "Oh it's nice to hear some proper Welsh isn't it" or "Wish I could speak it but nobody does round here really". And that's backed up by the studies. Most people in Wales, by a wide margin, want more done to preserve Welsh (53% v 20%) not less.

As for some of the claims about rudeness etc from Welsh speakers, stop lumping everyone in with the one or two idiots you once met. Yes you'll meet one or two Welsh speakers who will be mean to you. Mr Blue Sky, it breaks my heart that you were discouraged from learning by people criticising your pronunciation - those people are idiots. But every group of society has such idiots, believe me there's plenty of idiots who don't speak Welsh as well. (And if you really feel that every single Welsh speaker you meet seems to be 'militant' towards you, think of the old saying that 'If everyone you meet is rude to you, maybe you should start to think why.')

But the vast majority of Welsh speakers have absolutely no wish to 'force it down your throat' or to intentionally exclude you from their conversation. The pub didn't all switch to Welsh when you walked in and that couple giggling in Welsh at the next table are probably not just using Welsh so they can talk about you. Welsh speakers speak Welsh just because they do. It really is that simple. It's their first language, it's what they're most comfortable in and when you walk into the room it's very awkward for us to switch to speaking English with a friend that we're used to speaking Welsh to. If you're part of the conversation then of course we will switch to English (unless you're with one of those afore-mentioned idiots) but if we turn to our friend for a side conversation that you're not part of, speaking Welsh is what comes natural.
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Zach

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 5:44 pm

Croesyceiliog


You try reading addresses like this to some national delivery company. It much waste so much time.
Bwlchgwyn
Crymych
Rhydymwyn
Ysbyty Ystwyth
Cwmtwrch
Cwmystwyth
Mwnt
Cwm
Plwmp
Ysbyty Cynfyn

I lives in Cwmystwyth
Ok boy, I'll spell it out...

C as See Here,
W as in Whales
M as in Mmmm let me think,
Y as in Why,
S as in S clwb 7,
T as in Tea Dance,
W as in Whales again,
Y as in Why again,
T as in another Tea Dance,
H as in Help

gotit?

Mean time Mr John Smith has ordered his goods from 4 Box Road Bath. while your on the third Y
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Jantra

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 6:58 pm

@cwlcymro

I've nothing against Welsh pronunciation at all. You have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

The canton/pontcanna thing goes back a long time on this forum.
I'd rather be no one than someone with no one.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 6:59 pm

Zach wrote:
Croesyceiliog


You try reading addresses like this to some national delivery company. It much waste so much time.
Bwlchgwyn
Crymych
Rhydymwyn
Ysbyty Ystwyth
Cwmtwrch
Cwmystwyth
Mwnt
Cwm
Plwmp
Ysbyty Cynfyn

I lives in Cwmystwyth
Ok boy, I'll spell it out...

C as See Here,
W as in Whales
M as in Mmmm let me think,
Y as in Why,
S as in S clwb 7,
T as in Tea Dance,
W as in Whales again,
Y as in Why again,
T as in another Tea Dance,
H as in Help

gotit?

Mean time Mr John Smith has ordered his goods from 4 Box Road Bath. while your on the third Y


Life must be so hard for you if spelling out place names causes you so much stress. Plenty of people in England need to spell out their town names too you know (Beauchief, Bozeat Brougham, Bylaugh and so on so on)

And anyway, it's not like you live in Penisarwaun...
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Cwlcymro

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 7:00 pm

Jantra wrote:@cwlcymro

I've nothing against Welsh pronunciation at all. You have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

The canton/pontcanna thing goes back a long time on this forum.


Sorry Jantra, should be aimed at the quote within your quote (Blue Sky) instead then!
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Jantra

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 7:05 pm

Cwlcymro wrote:
Jantra wrote:@cwlcymro

I've nothing against Welsh pronunciation at all. You have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

The canton/pontcanna thing goes back a long time on this forum.


Sorry Jantra, should be aimed at the quote within your quote (Blue Sky) instead then!


Dim problwm.

I try and use a few phrases a day, mainly Beth wyt ti gwneud to my kids....i struggle with English at the best of times
I'd rather be no one than someone with no one.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostTue Aug 22, 2017 7:56 pm

Cwlcymro wrote:
Jantra wrote:@cwlcymro

I've nothing against Welsh pronunciation at all. You have gotten the wrong end of the stick.

The canton/pontcanna thing goes back a long time on this forum.


Sorry Jantra, should be aimed at the quote within your quote (Blue Sky) instead then!


Let me be clear. I have been a member and activist for Plaid Cymru, including working at Ty Gwynfor, for decades. I have spent thousands of hours in the company of people who speak Welsh and during those hours they mainly spoke Welsh. I have been to over a thousand meetings and functions where people were speaking Welsh. My offspring go to Welsh school. Most of my friends in Plaid are Welsh speakers.

For you to suggest that it is my responsibility that some Welsh speakers are rude to me because of some fault of mine is patronising and actually rude. What i wrote was that when phoning Plaid members and voters from Ty Gwynfor a fair few of them had been angry that i couldn't speak Welsh. Probably about 5%.

I don't know what the Welsh is for "bollocks" but you should read posts more carefully before weighing in and writing bolwcs.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

PostWed Aug 23, 2017 1:31 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:For you to suggest that it is my responsibility that some Welsh speakers are rude to me because of some fault of mine is patronising and actually rude. What i wrote was that when phoning Plaid members and voters from Ty Gwynfor a fair few of them had been angry that i couldn't speak Welsh. Probably about 5%.
I don't know what the Welsh is for "bollocks" but you should read posts more carefully before weighing in and writing bolwcs.


Wow Blue Sky, read my post again, I agree 100% with that. Those 5% are idiots, that's literally what I said

Cwlcymro wrote:"Mr Blue Sky, it breaks my heart that you were discouraged from learning by people criticising your pronunciation - those people are idiots."


The bit about 'If everyone you meet is rude to you, maybe you should start to think why.' was for those in the thread who said that all their experiences of Welsh speakers are of angry militants (i.e. Zach). Full apologies if I made it sound like that was aimed at you!

The only thing you've said in this thread I disagree with is

The people who live in a place get to pronounce it how they want to, not some outsiders with a superior attitude.


As someone living in a Welsh-named place that's pronounced differently by the vast majority of the people living here, I don't agree that I'm an outsider with a superior attitude for sticking to the proper pronunciation.
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