The Welsh Language a help or hindrance for Wales?

Sorry Jantra, my post was not dismissive or arrogant. None of you seems to be listening to what I'm saying.

Welsh language policy should always be up for debate.

Acceptable arguments:

"I'm not sure if I'm happy with my kid learning Welsh all the way until 16."

"I don't think Welsh should be essential for many public sector jobs."

"I don't think the 1m Welsh speakers policy is a good idea."

Unacceptable and totally disgusting statements:

"What is the point of Welsh?"

"It's a dead language"

"I hate Welsh speakers"

What you and others are advocating is criticism of people's language. This is not on, and this is why it's so hurtful to those of us who speak Welsh, especially when it comes from supposedly fellow Welsh people.

Yes, there are the extremely fiery types, but take a moment to think about why they exist and why they feel the way they do.

Perhaps you and others will find this website useful: https://whywelsh.wordpress.com/

Matthew

You are quite correct. Only your opinion is valid and if anyone else has an opinion that is ever so slightly different they need to be dismissed as uninformed and I'll educated.

The only correct way to debate is to ignore what everyone else is saying and repeat what you said first time ad nauseum

Sounds to me like you've lost the argument.

Surely the problem is that a certain element of people who promote the welsh language are so, so, precious about it. I don't speak welsh but my wife and daughter do so I am fully supportive of the language but the amount of people I meet that are so aggressive in their protection of it baffles me and makes me and others I know less inclined to get more involved.

I too encounter lots of people - through work and socially - that intentionally speak welsh in front of others that cannot speak it, with an attitude that non-speakers should know it, and yes they are usually from the north west of the country. When this happens I am immediately cut of of the conversation and I do find it incredibly rude. I frequently have to deal with German natives in my job, I can speak a small amount of German and do my best to greet and use the language as much as I can (as I do with welsh) when in Germany, but when I am around German speakers that know I cannot speak the language fluently they would never dare speak German to each other and isolate me from the conversation. Why should it be any different in Wales.

I just think the welsh language would find so much more favour if it wasn't for the aggressive militant protection of it some people feel they need to take. Such a shame.

I've nothing to back this up, just my own experience of what I see day to day.

This is a thread or topic line I've attempted to steer clear of, as I don't always believe such debates are in the interests of the forum, but nonetheless, I think your argument has some valid points.

I myself am English and first came to Wales four years ago to study. Having graduated and hanging around in Wales, I can and do see what you have experienced, of some Welsh people, purposefully engaging in conversation in the language in front of non speakers, something which I think regardless of the languages being used is just wrong, and certainly rude.

However, I do think you have a valid point about German speakers for example making efforts not to use language to exclude, on the whole, it has to be remembered that the language is far more widely spoken and debate over such 'protectionism' of the language doesn't exist in the first place, so I'm not sure comparisons between the two can be directly drawn.

Additionally, I personally have witnessed people from all walks of life using language to exclude others from conversation, or engage in private conversation, German speakers (of which I too speak a degree of German), Spanish, French, Asian languages and more. This isn't a phenomenon exclusive to Welsh Speakers. However. I do agree with you that there is certainly a level of militant protectionism (justifiably or unjustifiably depending on where you sit), and I think that can be very off putting to non welsh speakers. I myself would love to be able to speak welsh, it sounds a beautiful language, but I've firsthand witnessed the attitude of 'so you can't speak Welsh and you should be able to, BUT we don't want to help you to be able to speak it!'

But why should Welsh speakers have to change their language to accommodate other people? It isn't rude unless you are genuinely being nasty and talking behind people's backs. What is rude is moving to a rural, Welsh-speaking area and not learning a word of the language even after 40 years of living there, which is what I see constantly.

Sounds to me like you've lost the argument.

I wasn't arguing. I was stating in a roundabout way that you don't want debate, just agreement with your point of view.

But why should Welsh speakers have to change their language to accommodate other people? It isn't rude unless you are genuinely being nasty and talking behind people's backs. What is rude is moving to a rural, Welsh-speaking area and not learning a word of the language even after 40 years of living there, which is what I see constantly.

In Denmark and the Netherlands (for example), they will happily switch to English to include non native language speakers.

I agree with your 2nd point, I don't think there are many who would disagree with you.

I switch to English most of the time too, but in my place of work I will speak Welsh to Welsh speakers and English to English speakers. If the conversation involves 1 Welsh speaker and 2 English speakers then of course I would switch. With learners, I speak Welsh slowly and clearly.

I switch to English most of the time too, but in my place of work I will speak Welsh to Welsh speakers and English to English speakers. If the conversation involves 1 Welsh speaker and 2 English speakers then of course I would switch. With learners, I speak Welsh slowly and clearly.

Mathew please don't get me wrong, what you explain here and advocate is fine, why shouldn't you speak your own language to others that use it, especially if it is your first language, it must bring you a lot of pleasure and allow you to express yourself. Like I said my wife and daughter speak Welsh and my daughter is taught in the medium of Welsh, I have tried to learn but don't have a head for languages so I'm never going to be fluent. My intentions are not to attack or moan about the Welsh language, simply to illustrate that the way some people approach the promotion of the language is extremely counter productive. Like I said earlier it is such a shame.

What I am saying, I suppose, is the good manners that you show by switching to English when there is a non-welsh speaker around is generally not my experience. For example I have spent nights out in the pub with welsh speakers and have sat there sometimes for over an hour without a word of English being spoken, even though all parties are well aware I can't speak it, on occasions I have just left the pub to eyes being rolled. I also know from speaking to others that they experience similar situations and of course some in this thread have also confirmed experiencing it, so it must exist.

Also any debate about the Welsh language does generally end in hysteria (proof of this in this thread?) if is there is any deviation from the argument that the way it is promoted is correct and welsh speakers attitudes are correct. It's just very unhealthy and never moves the debate on and I can't understand it.

Do you agree there is a a lot of resentment surrounding this subject? If so how would you suggest we solve this. I do not say this flippantly and am genuinely interested to hear your views on this.

I am sorry to hear about your experiences and that you felt left out.

I think people in your situation need to remember that just because they are speaking in Welsh, it doesn't mean they're talking about you or are excluding you from the conversation - it's that the conversation actually doesn't involve you. We are getting into Englishman walks into a proverbial pub in north Wales territory here.

If they are your friends, you should be able to speak up and tell them how they're making you feel. But at the end of the day, if Welsh wasn't spoken in these kinds of situations, it wouldn't be spoken at all.

When I lived in Norway and Germany, I didn't mind it when people spoke German and Norwegian around me.

I have been equally put off by English-speaking Welsh people and English people when they all think I'm a rabid nationalist and that I hate English speakers. I had one friend say to me "You think you're better than us because you speak Welsh."

I went on a date with a handsome guy once who said "So, are you a cottage burner then?". I left after an hour.

And this is what has happened. We are either cottage burners or haters of the language. There is no room for those of us who form the broad spectrum of normal people in between.

Any debate about the Welsh language should be informed and sensitive. You can't have someone who doesn't speak Welsh comment on the language because they don't speak it. What actually is the point? I have no clue whatsoever about neurosurgery, so I wouldn't go on TV to talk about it.

This debate has been around for decades, and there is no real answer apart from accepting that we live in a country with two languages and we are currently going through the painful process of making one of them official with the same status as the other. There are countless countries in Europe and around the world where two or more languages are spoken and we are just one of them. Language is to Wales what class is to England what religion is to Northern Ireland what independence is to Scotland. It's a division, and a harsh one, but one we are going to live with and we can either choose to do so respectfully or just be ignorant and rude.