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Metro

if it's about Cardiff.. Sport, Entertainment, Transportation, Business, Development Projects, Leisure, Eating, Drinking, Nightlife, Shopping, Train Spotting! etc.. then we want it here!
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sebcity

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 1:09 pm

For the South East Wales Region not to see a truly properly integrated metro, would be disastrous and halt economic growth of the area. In my book, this is, far far far more important than improving of train times between London and Wales, this needs to be done right if Cardiff and the region wants to compete with the UK's best.
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Simon__200

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 1:26 pm

Jantra wrote:
Simon__200 wrote:
Zach wrote:That wasn't my quote it was a transport expert, why then do the WAG hold the franchise, if not for political reasons?
If devolution is so great how come transport, education and health are all at the bottom of the UK league tables.

That's not a valid argument. You'd have to show that the reason they're in the position at all is related to devolution, and unless you can show this, your point is completely bogus. How do you know that education, transport & health wouldn't be in an even worse state if it wasn't for devolution?

That's a pitiful attempt as justifying devolution. We wanted to be masters of our own destiny and now we are. Things have gotten worse not better.


Not it's not. And we're never going to be masters of our own destiny. Since our funding is effectively a handout decided by our true masters, we're only ever able to re-arrange the proverbial deckchairs.

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 2:16 pm

We get more from Whitehall than we pay in. It's far from a handout.
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Simon_SW17

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 2:22 pm

Wales certainly doesn't get a fair share of rail investment, it has 11% of the railway network and gets 6% of spending.
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Zach

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 3:25 pm

Don't get confused by track length and pax numbers.

2015/16

Railway journeys in the UK
1.69 billion

Railway journeys in Wales
20.9 million.

I think 6% funding is very generous for 1.2% usage.

PS are you counting arriva trains wales track in England?
If so you need to apply to the assembly as welsh rail expert!
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moyceyyy

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 5:19 pm

Zach wrote:Don't get confused by track length and pax numbers.

2015/16

Railway journeys in the UK
1.69 billion

Railway journeys in Wales
20.9 million.

I think 6% funding is very generous for 1.2% usage.

PS are you counting arriva trains wales track in England?
If so you need to apply to the assembly as welsh rail expert!


Is that figure for actual rail passengers or the actual train journeys?

if its for the passenger amounts, then I find it very hard to believe myself, as there are 13 million passengers using Cardiff Central alone, never mind Queen Street, Swansea, Newport, Wrexham (5 stations), Bridgend, etc.

and if its for the actual train journeys then that is irrelevant. If SE Wales isnt given the rail funding it needs then things will be desperate in 30 years time. Overcrowding at certain times is almost dangerous at present, so I wouldnt imagine any different in the future when passenger use doubles.
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Zach

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 6:48 pm

There were 30.31 million rail passenger journeys which either started or ended in Wales in 2015-16, an increase of 3.36 per cent when compared to the previous year. Over two-thirds (68 per cent) of these journeys were within Wales.
Rail passenger journeys within Wales have increased annually with approximately 20.7 million journeys reported in 2015-16 which is a 3.7 per cent increase on the 2014-15 figures.


http://gov.wales/statistics-and-researc ... t/?lang=en

So 1.2% of UK Rail Journeys within Wales
and 1.8% that start or end in Wales.

Still a lot less than the 6% figure or even the 10%

The "Heart of Wales Line" have very few passengers** but accounts for 10% of total track length in Wales, Should we by some people twisted maths spend 10% of rail spending within Wales just on this one line?
La-La-Land Logic!

** 4 single carriage trains per day and 2 on Sundays. My best calculation is 10,000/year @ 75% occupancy or 0.02% of rail traffic in Wales
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RandomComment

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Re: Metro

PostTue Aug 15, 2017 7:34 pm

I think there are two separate issues here, which are being missed or conflated (in part because a certain someone likes winding people up, and others are rising to the bait).

1) Is the appropriate level of funding for rail infrastructure in Wales versus the rest of the country. Actually we get something like 1-2% of overall rail capital spending, not 6%. So Its more or less in line with the share of journeys.

Zach makes a relevant point when he says you can't look at track length and equate that to investment. You also can't do exactly the same for passenger numbers or passenger miles either.

You'll need to take into account existing capacity, demand, etc.

But there is also a legitimate question about whether the government should actually invest more outside of London and South East (even if thats where most of the demand for rail funding is) in an effort at economic rebalancing. My own view is it doesn't make much sense to do that only via transport (good transport infrastructure is probably a necessary but not sufficient condition for improved economic performance).

2) Separate from how much funding Wales should get overall, is the issue of this £1 billion that relates to the rebate Arriva Trains Wales currently pays to DfT.

I've found the reporting on this issue very imprecise. Is there an issue because the WG won't have the competency to require the same sort of rebate from ATW? Or will a rebate continue to be paid but still go to DfT even though WG now has the responsibility for the track maintenance (although not new investment) in Wales?

In either case, why wasn't this dealt with earlier? If the former, then why not amend the legislation, or why not deal with it by paying smaller subsidies in the first place? (So you don't need a rebate) If the latter, then how can the UK government really justify this?

Wales (and increasingly the UK as a whole) is poorly served by a media that doesn't get into the heart of big issues like this. Our politicians and governments can get away with failing or cheating or b*llshitting if they aren't held to account by a media (and public) that properly interrogate issues rather than just focus on headlines.
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Msmurf

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Re: Metro

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 9:33 am

This whole problems comes back to the Barnett Formula and how it has been used and misused ever since devolution started. The fact is that some transport is devolved and some is not - but there is no clear mechanism for defining which is UK wide (argubally HS2 but most clearly not Crossrail) and how this should then be adressed in financial settlement.

Wales currently recieves 1.6% of UK Railway Capital Investment but if this was proportioned by population we should recieve 5%. That is not one year but has been over the last 20 years or so, so it means that we have suffered massivley from underinvestment over the years. During this time Rail was not devolved so we did not recieve any grant etc.

Accepting that we benefit from some UK investment - eg GWR electrification - partial or otherwise - it still looks like we have been underfunded for a large time. The UK government now seems to want to say we can only have our metro if we fully fund it ourselves as part of a devolution settement without taking any account of the last 20 years underfunding.

While we should try and improve this zero-offer we are probably better accepting it - becuse the alternative is much worse in the longer term
Build it and they will come.
Get it wrong and they will fall off.
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RandomComment

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Re: Metro

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 10:50 am

HS2 is counted as Barnetable for Scotland (where rail infrastructure investment is devolved) but not-Barnetable for Wales (where it isn't). Crossrail is counted as Barnetable for both. See page 68 of:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... _print.pdf

As I understand it when Scotland was offered rail infrastructure devolution - and a population share of funding -, Wales was offered the same deal. But it was turned down at the time because it was felt it would prejudice broader calls for "fair funding" and a needs-based formula.

And regarding 5% versus 1.6%. Its a dangerous game for Wales to play to argue for a population share. We currently get circa 5.8% of overall spending. Thats because "needs" for spending are generally agreed to be higher in Wales - an older, sicker, poorer population. That doesn't mean needs are higher for every service area though. Crime is lower so police funding needs are probably lower (actually Wales does reasonably well here if you exclude London from the picture). And usage of rail (and the patterns of population and commuting that underlie that) is much lower, so needs are probably much lower. The extra money we get for health, social care, and benefits more than outweighs these though.
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