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Metro

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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Metro

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 7:38 pm

Jantra wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:RC the point about Welsh Steam Coal was that it made your battleships go faster with virtually no smoke emitted, preventing detection. You could be on the enemy, blast them and away. It was a crucial advantage.

I'm no commie but this is an excellent piece from the Morning Star highlighting its value during WW1

https://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/a-7 ... ZRpwdHTWhA

What were the naval engagements the Royal Navy faced during this period? (1850-1901 not Jutland)

Jellicoes 'invisible' grand fleet steaming into jutland

Image


In 1864 the bombardment of Kagoshima forced Japan to accept foreign traders. During the Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878) the British sent a fleet of battleships under Geoffrey Phipps Hornby to intimidate Russia from entering Constantinople. Over the next thirty years, only a bombardment of Alexandria in 1882 brought the fleet into action, carried out to ensure control of the Suez Canal.


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... Royal_Navy

Anyway this is beside the point. The debate over renewing Trident shows the value of a deterrent - which was what the RN was. You've heard of "gunboat diplomacy", no doubt.

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostWed Aug 16, 2017 7:53 pm

After 1827 there were no major battles until 1914.


From your source. So what was your point about Welsh coal and the Royal Navy?
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Metro

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 3:55 pm

Jantra wrote:
After 1827 there were no major battles until 1914.


From your source. So what was your point about Welsh coal and the Royal Navy?



That the Royal Navy used, exclusively Welsh coal from 1851 till after WW1, it fuelled the most potent military force that the world had ever seen, that Welsh workers were exploited specifically for the enlargement and maintenance of the Empire.

The fact that the Royal Navy had no major battles is irrelevant to the point. No other navies wanted to engage with the RN a because it was so powerful. Or do you know differently? Or are you just being difficult?
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RandomComment

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Re: Metro

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 4:50 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Jantra wrote:
After 1827 there were no major battles until 1914.


From your source. So what was your point about Welsh coal and the Royal Navy?



That the Royal Navy used, exclusively Welsh coal from 1851 till after WW1, it fuelled the most potent military force that the world had ever seen, that Welsh workers were exploited specifically for the enlargement and maintenance of the Empire.

The fact that the Royal Navy had no major battles is irrelevant to the point. No other navies wanted to engage with the RN a because it was so powerful. Or do you know differently? Or are you just being difficult?


If Welsh workers were exploited, so were the workers in Durham, Nottinghamshire, Liverpool, Manchester. By modern standards, industrial workers across the country were exploited.

However, poorer societies tolerate worse working conditions, worse environmental conditions, etc. for improvements in material living standards. Witness the developing world today. Britain in the late 19th century had inflation-adjusted mean incomes perhaps 1/5 of today's levels (median perhaps 1/6 of today's levels). Real incomes in towns/industry/mines were substantially higher than in rural villages/agriculture. When you're that poor, an extra 20%-30% income probably seems worth having even if it means bad conditions.

So I'm objecting to your nationalist lens (if it is exploitation, a class lens is more appropriate). And I'm not sure I fully buy the exploitation story. Or, at least don't consider it necessarily worse than the "historic norm" for the labouring classes.
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penarth bloke

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Re: Metro

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 5:07 pm

I'm at a loss to understand this conversation and it's link to the Metro.
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RandomComment

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Re: Metro

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 5:22 pm

penarth bloke wrote:I'm at a loss to understand this conversation and it's link to the Metro.


It started off as a discussion of whether Wales should get 5% of rail funding based on population, 11% based on track length (are we sure thats true?), or some other number based on "demand/need". There was then a discussion more generally about funding and it was suggested that Wales was sort-of owed money from England because of previous exploitation.

There is a link there.. its just now got a life of its own!
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Cen

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Re: Metro

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 6:03 pm

We shouldn't be too strict on staying "on topic". It sometimes ruins the flow of the discussion. I'd agree some threads get out of hand but there's nothing wrong with a bit of divergence every now and then.

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 6:25 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:
Jantra wrote:
After 1827 there were no major battles until 1914.


From your source. So what was your point about Welsh coal and the Royal Navy?



That the Royal Navy used, exclusively Welsh coal from 1851 till after WW1, it fuelled the most potent military force that the world had ever seen, that Welsh workers were exploited specifically for the enlargement and maintenance of the Empire.

The fact that the Royal Navy had no major battles is irrelevant to the point. No other navies wanted to engage with the RN a because it was so powerful. Or do you know differently? Or are you just being difficult?

I'm not disputing the pre eminence of the senior service, I'm disputing your claim that using Welsh coal gave the royal navy an invisibility shield, when it clearly did not.

BTW gunbloat diplomacy was about parking an armoured cruiser in the port of the local potentate you were looking to intimidate. It certainly wasn't about using the invisibility cloak given to you from use of Welsh coal - you wanted to be visible.
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Simon__200

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Re: Metro

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 9:06 am

RandomComment wrote:
penarth bloke wrote:I'm at a loss to understand this conversation and it's link to the Metro.


It started off as a discussion of whether Wales should get 5% of rail funding based on population, 11% based on track length (are we sure thats true?), or some other number based on "demand/need". There was then a discussion more generally about funding and it was suggested that Wales was sort-of owed money from England because of previous exploitation.

There is a link there.. its just now got a life of its own!

Well it was more of a suggestion that we already get too much money from England decided by Westminster considering that don't really contribute our share. Not sure how you can argue that point, since it's Westminster that's also culpable for the historic economic decline of the region.

Then there was a discussion about how much Wales actually historically contributed to wealth anyway, where you pointed out that the wealth ended up in the hands of a small number of private indivuals. Again, I can't see how you can say that this means that Wales is somehow undeserving as a region simply because its resources, and the wealth it created were allowed to be squandered, and the labour exploited. It was still wealth created in this region.
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Metro

PostFri Aug 18, 2017 1:16 pm

Jantra wrote:I'm not disputing the pre eminence of the senior service, I'm disputing your claim that using Welsh coal gave the royal navy an invisibility shield, when it clearly did not.

BTW gunbloat diplomacy was about parking an armoured cruiser in the port of the local potentate you were looking to intimidate. It certainly wasn't about using the invisibility cloak given to you from use of Welsh coal - you wanted to be visible.


Less about invisibility than speed and accelearation. And compared to other coal fuels there is less smoke visible over the horizon. If you'd read the piece from the Morning Star you'd have realised how important Welsh steam coal was to the British state and its military and imperial ambitions. But then again why bother? I've beaten you, hands down, in every debate we've ever had. To misquote you "you are made of defeat".

:D :D :D
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