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Metro

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Cen

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 11:59 am

I have little knowledge on this sort of thing, but surely they are doing this the wrong way round. You can't just refurbish existing lines and badge it as a metro system. That's not a metro. Surely these valley lines need a hub in the city centre?

I would have thought the sensible thing to do would be to start right in the centres of Cardiff and Newport and extend outwards. Maybe someone here could explain their logic to me?
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moyceyyy

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 1:03 pm

While you are right, it all comes down to cost. Creating a whole new metro line ON TOP of the valley and city lines would be incredible and transform Cardiff, but by lord you would be spending billions.

And yes, I am aware of the unbelievable cost to HS2 :( Wish money would go where it is more needed.
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solaris

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 1:50 pm

Manchester Metrolnk was based at the outset predominantly on the upgrade and conversion to LR of two old HR lines (Bury and Altrincham). Most cost effective approach and making much better use of existing asset.

New On street LR is very very expensive with major planning and construction risks (eg Edinburgh). We need a large efficient and affordable rapid transit work - we are lucky to have an extensive rail network in the valleys that can be upgraded/transformed. Like Manchester, once that is complete, extensions become easer and more affordable in both revenue and capital terms.
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Cen

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 2:08 pm

Well as long as we get a real metro system I'm not too bothered about the order it's done. My main concern is that we'll actually end up with what is essentially the same as before but named "South Wales Metro".

What are the actual improvements that are going to be made that justifies this as a metro? Has anyone ever set out an endgame? I think we're all in agreement that new connections and inner-city rail transport is way beyond due. If they can't guarantee that then how can they call it a "metro" rather than just a line upgrade with some fancy new "rapid transit" buses?

It's no good saying "Future work will be more cost-effective." because we don't even know what that future work will entail!
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moyceyyy

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 3:07 pm

I think the main component which justifies the use of the term "metro" is that all of the public transport systems in the area, be it Newport Bus, Cardiff Bus, all Rail lines, and any light tram systems, will all be called the metro, and will all use the same ticket system, making it possible for you to travel anywhere in SE Wales on any form of public transport using one ticket, or card.

This, probably alongside services which are promised to be up to twice as frequent will make this one awesome project. :D

One thing though, if services really are going to be that much more frequent, Cardiff Central is going to be a nightmare.
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Cen

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 3:26 pm

I see where you're coming from, but surely that "one ticket for all" system can be put in place right now. If that's the case then would you consider our existing network to be a metro? I certainly wouldn't!

We need a proper plan. None of this "Oh maybe we could do this in 2024" or "If this is done then possibly that could be done later on" mentality. This is public money they're spending and we deserve to be shown something meaningful. Hopefully come late 2017 we have a true structure and timescale to the project before the contract is due to be awarded.
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Peiriannydd

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 4:01 pm

Cen wrote:Would it be possible to build a hybrid system? By that I mean a tram network that goes underground only when necessary. It would only need to do this in the inner city and possibly to the West where housing is more dense and the roads narrower. Elsewhere, an overground tram network would be sufficient and in some ways the better option.


Yes, the tram network in Porto (Portugal) does just that and has some mini underground stations! You should see those trams goe up steep inclines too. That go up pretty steep hills in Lisbon as well.
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Peiriannydd

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 4:05 pm

Cen wrote:I have little knowledge on this sort of thing, but surely they are doing this the wrong way round. You can't just refurbish existing lines and badge it as a metro system. That's not a metro. Surely these valley lines need a hub in the city centre?

I would have thought the sensible thing to do would be to start right in the centres of Cardiff and Newport and extend outwards. Maybe someone here could explain their logic to me?


The electrification of the Valleys lines was always going to be the first component. Now it's questionable whether that also includes moving those lines to light rail (i.e. trams) in the process. That way they could then connect more easily with future extension into the city centre.

I think initially, most of this scheme will be centred around upgraded existing infrastructure, installing a few tram lines and then the 2 crucial things for any Metro to work: 1) a ticket system that covers the entire network and 2) much more frequent services.
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solaris

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 5:11 pm

I am afraid that in a deregulated bus market with competition rules (as is the case everywhere outside London) then true transport integration and single ticket multi-mode journeys are very difficult. These are not devolved matters and even the English PTEs struggle with this. Its only London (which unlike the rest of the UK did not have its bus networks deregulated in the 1980s) where this single ticket approach can easily operate. The intent is there in SE Wales, but we need executive capability and probably some legal/regulatory levers to be pulled as well.... Metro could well be the catalyst for that....

The overall intent & vision has been well published....
http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

The procurement now i/p will determine what we get....
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RandomComment

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Re: Metro

PostThu Mar 02, 2017 8:53 pm

solaris wrote:I am afraid that in a deregulated bus market with competition rules (as is the case everywhere outside London) then true transport integration and single ticket multi-mode journeys are very difficult. These are not devolved matters and even the English PTEs struggle with this. Its only London (which unlike the rest of the UK did not have its bus networks deregulated in the 1980s) where this single ticket approach can easily operate. The intent is there in SE Wales, but we need executive capability and probably some legal/regulatory levers to be pulled as well.... Metro could well be the catalyst for that....

The overall intent & vision has been well published....
http://gov.wales/topics/transport/public/metro/?lang=en

The procurement now i/p will determine what we get....


Isn't there a bus bill going through to allow the franchising of bus services in areas with mayoral combined authorities in England? Isn't transport devolved to Wales so Wales could go down the same approach with franchising?
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