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Metro

if it's about Cardiff.. Sport, Entertainment, Transportation, Business, Development Projects, Leisure, Eating, Drinking, Nightlife, Shopping, Train Spotting! etc.. then we want it here!
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Jantra

Re: Metro

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 9:48 am

redragon wrote:That kind of mind set is what resulted in the many shit post war British developments that have either since been redeveloped or continue to blight rural and urban areas. Vague policy, little it no consultation and a small man with a point to prove. I'd also be interested to compare injury and death rates in China's major building sites compared to here...not to mention other human rights, like hours of work etc.


We are talking conversion of rail to light rail and integrating timetables of buses, trains and trams. Just how much consultation do you really need? You also seem to be confusing application of site safety with all the consultation exercises, impact assessments, and so on that are deemed necessary before anything gets started.

I want to see workmen digging up roads laying light rail infrastructure. What exactly has been done to get us to that stage? That's right, nothing yet this has been going on for two years or more now.

The uk state is afraid to undertake rapid decision making, that's it in a nutshell
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solaris

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Re: Metro

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 2:09 pm

Metro whilst a great vision is by no means a committed scheme (or schemes) in terms of the big vision. Smaller tactical schemes are though (eg Ebbw Vale line Ext) committed.

The Metro work to date has been mainly advocacy and promotion... this in UK terms is an essential precursor but does not in anyway guarantee progress.

Further, there is no body/organisation in place that could take responsibility for the development, delivery, etc of such a large scale programme....
Reality is much more work is required and this must be developed in a way that complies with UK Treasury Green Book rules.... five case business model etc. Will also need formal option appraisal, EIA, public consultation, TWA, etc.... Much as we would like it, in the UK have no choice.

The issue of integrating rail & bus re services and ticketing is actually a lot more complex that it sounds. Buses are deregulated (except in London) and their is no obligation in current rail franchise to ensure integration. Smart ticketing technology is easy - not so easy to negotiate and agree apportionment of farebox across different operators and modes. Who would take ownership of such... in many city regions a "PTE" would do this (although bus deregulation and competition law actually acts against integration) and in TfL case they would also take the revenue risk. No PTE or similar development and delivery body in SE Wales to lead this on a long term strategic basis. Local Gov reorg, Williams and emerging city regions adds to the complexity. It just is not that easy to cut through!

And again back to my first point - not everyone is yet persuaded by Metro, esp in Sir Humphrey land (politicians do not weald all the power you would think) so continual promotion and advocacy is essential. ...and first step has to be creation of "body" with appropriate remit, funding etc. (cf Crossrail, HS2) to develop the programme. Happy to discuss off line....

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 2:19 pm

solaris wrote:Reality is much more work is required and this must be developed in a way that complies with UK Treasury Green Book rules.... five case business model etc. Will also need formal option appraisal, EIA, public consultation, TWA, etc.... Much as we would like it, in the UK have no choice.....


Of course we have a choice, a different approach could be adopted but as I've said the uk civil service are far too afraid of making sensible decisions in a small time frame.

We are talking about converting existing rail to light rail. This is 19th century technology. We aren't looking to put man on Mars or to design a quantum computer. The civil service model is a farce, inflexible and is designed with the aim of stifling economic development.

This project is not complicated - it's a railway and we need to remember that.
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Ash

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Re: Metro

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 5:54 pm

In some way I don't disagree with you Jantra but I think it's worth remembering that the project can only proceed as funding becomes available. The WG decision to opt for the most expensive option for an M4 relief road means that development of the Metro - a far more important project in my view - can only proceed at a snail's pace. I share your frustration.

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostSat Aug 30, 2014 6:49 pm

Ash wrote:In some way I don't disagree with you Jantra but I think it's worth remembering that the project can only proceed as funding becomes available. The WG decision to opt for the most expensive option for an M4 relief road means that development of the Metro - a far more important project in my view - can only proceed at a snail's pace. I share your frustration.


I appreciate capital constraints ash but so far all we've had is money spent on consultants - solutions looking for a problem - telling us what we already know.

I've read the 5 case methodology this afternoon and can't believe people actually write 152 pages of tripe and then adhere to its methodology. Why not just apply common sense and programme/project management. It's civil service guff that isn't necessary.
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redragon

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Re: Metro

PostSun Aug 31, 2014 9:50 am

Jantra, You seem to know so much about absolutely everything, I wonder why you aren't personally involved in any developments in the uk?
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DaiB

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Re: Metro

PostSun Aug 31, 2014 6:10 pm

solaris wrote:
The issue of integrating rail & bus re services and ticketing is actually a lot more complex that it sounds. Buses are deregulated (except in London) and their is no obligation in current rail franchise to ensure integration. Smart ticketing technology is easy - not so easy to negotiate and agree apportionment of farebox across different operators and modes. Who would take ownership of such... in many city regions a "PTE" would do this (although bus deregulation and competition law actually acts against integration) and in TfL case they would also take the revenue risk. No PTE or similar development and delivery body in SE Wales to lead this on a long term strategic basis. Local Gov reorg, Williams and emerging city regions adds to the complexity. It just is not that easy to cut through!




This. It's all very well saying it's just a railway, let's build it, but then we'd have a nice shiny railway with no one to run it. The stuff the report talks about (and I agree, it is merely talking with no action), is actually the stuff that needs to be in place. Common ticketing, timetabling, a common identity, and some body or other to actually manage and run the whole thing, whilst skirting the competition legislation our market-led society has put in place. I don't see how anyone could consider that a simple exercise with the number of public and, indeed, PRIVATE, firms currently in the mix providing transport in the region.

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostSun Aug 31, 2014 6:18 pm

redragon wrote:Jantra, You seem to know so much about absolutely everything, I wonder why you aren't personally involved in any developments in the uk?

Where have I said I know absolutely everything? You've made that up. What I've alluded to is a lot of rhetoric but no action. We are two years into this project and so far all we know is that we might get trains trams and buses in an integrated network. Honestly!!!

This isn't progress and it's insulting us to suggest it is

Jantra

Re: Metro

PostSun Aug 31, 2014 6:20 pm

DaiB wrote:
solaris wrote:
The issue of integrating rail & bus re services and ticketing is actually a lot more complex that it sounds. Buses are deregulated (except in London) and their is no obligation in current rail franchise to ensure integration. Smart ticketing technology is easy - not so easy to negotiate and agree apportionment of farebox across different operators and modes. Who would take ownership of such... in many city regions a "PTE" would do this (although bus deregulation and competition law actually acts against integration) and in TfL case they would also take the revenue risk. No PTE or similar development and delivery body in SE Wales to lead this on a long term strategic basis. Local Gov reorg, Williams and emerging city regions adds to the complexity. It just is not that easy to cut through!




This. It's all very well saying it's just a railway, let's build it, but then we'd have a nice shiny railway with no one to run it. The stuff the report talks about (and I agree, it is merely talking with no action), is actually the stuff that needs to be in place. Common ticketing, timetabling, a common identity, and some body or other to actually manage and run the whole thing, whilst skirting the competition legislation our market-led society has put in place. I don't see how anyone could consider that a simple exercise with the number of public and, indeed, PRIVATE, firms currently in the mix providing transport in the region.


How difficult is it to get private sector operators onside? After all, if they don't buy in then it's unlikely they will succeed in securing the next franchise.
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solaris

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Re: Metro

PostMon Sep 01, 2014 4:35 pm

Sadly we don't live in a bureaucracy light utopia.... so some people are trying to make progress despite the challenges, by engaging with the system. Progress, albeit slow, is being made. Metro for two years was a private sector advocacy initiative... it is only in the last few month it has been making headway in terms of WG development and still has a long way to go. I don't wish to divert you all, but happy to share a view of what can be done and what cant...

On last comment.... bus operators can in reality do what they want - as stated above we are in a deregulated environment (as a result of the Con Gov measure in the mid 1980s) which all objective folk agree limits the potential for delivering truly integrated PT in the UK. The example of London - which is still regulated - would appear to bear this out

And the rail franchisee, well the next W&B franchise is up for renewal in 2018, this has to be a transparent and open procurement process... there are obstacles at every turn. Current franchisee can't be penalised for sticking to the terms of its current contractual obligations.

These are not excuses for inertia... but a manifestation of the truism that you have to play what is in front of you. Wishing green were blue might be self satisfying but will only lead to a diagnosis of colour blandness and not a colour re-classification.
Last edited by solaris on Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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