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Waterhall - Fairwater

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Caerdydd

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Waterhall - Fairwater

PostMon Sep 01, 2014 12:49 pm

Does anyone have any news on the possible Waterhall development plans? I know there was a protest a while back, just wondering if that had any bearing on the final decision.
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Kyle

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostWed Dec 10, 2014 4:22 pm

An update today on Waterhall/Plasdwr

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business/business-news/revealed-7000-home-garden-city-8265253

A high res version of the map here...

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/article8265004.ece/binary/Click%20here%20to%20view%20the%20Plasdwr%20map%20in%20high%20resolution

Looks like they want to get started on work in 2016 so expect lots of news about this next year.

The city is certainly waking up again with all these major housing developments
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Kyle

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostWed Dec 10, 2014 4:39 pm

Just found this :

http://plasdwr.co.uk/
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RandomComment

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostWed Dec 10, 2014 6:52 pm

A few comments.

1) In principle, I agree with development in N. W Cardiff. It provides a sizeable site for the development of a proper urban extension with appropriate infrastructure, community facilities, shops etc. Better than tacking on lots of 200 house developments willy nilly in Cardif and the lower valleys.

2) I like the fact that green space and woods are being retained.

3) I don't like the fact that perhaps the most important public transport corridor running through the site - the old disused railway line, seems no longer to be considered an option. Or, at least the development seems to 'face away' from this - if it were going to be utilised you think the highest density uses and commercial uses would be placed near the line. That doesn't look to be the case, with most of the area near the line being green space, and the main commercial area being a bit of a way to the North. Indeed, I think it envisages this as a cycle route.

The possibility of tram-trains are mentioned, but where would these go, is not. I think the bull needs to be grabbed by the horns here, to provide a route which connects right up to Beddau and Llantrisant.

4) Good website!
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostThu Dec 11, 2014 6:37 pm

Having taken the time to read the Design and Access statement, I have concluded that Plasdŵr is an ill-conceived scheme.
The notion that most journeys will be on foot or bike is ambitious, as the gradients are very hilly, and plans to force people onto buses to travel beyond Plasdŵr may come true as the Bus Rapid Transit planned for NW Cardiff will cause gridlock from Groesfaen to Castle Street.

David James of WalesOnline has written a scathing piece on Plasdŵr today, as has Daily Wales.

http://dailywales.net/2014/12/11/plans- ... -gridlock/
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RandomComment

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostThu Dec 11, 2014 7:23 pm

Daily Wales - which is a well known "independent voice" in no way associated with former coalition partners in Cardiff council who used to represent Fairwater -, and David James, a columnist from that "notoriously pro-development" Media Wales Group.

I'm sorry, I can't take seriously a journalist who says (and a political propaganda newspaper that quotes) the following:

"“The Labour administration in Cardiff came in promising to follow the Welsh Government’s rules of assessing population growth, identifying land for development and letting builders build on it.

“And until those rules are altered to protect all the remaining land in Cardiff so that development has to go either upwards or out, Cardiff’s suburban sprawl is the future.”"

Basically what this guy is saying is that he doesn't just believe this urban extension of Cardiff is flawed, but the entire concept of expanding Cardiff is flawed. Instead people should be shoehorned into apartments in dense tall developments (suitable for some, but by no means all, future residents of Cardiff). Or they should be forced to commute from further afield in the Valleys. Of course, the net result of all of this planning restriction and coercion will be a poorer Wales, fewer opportunities for young people, but some nice capital gains for owners of existing homes in suburban Cardiff.

Now, I do think transport is the weakest link in the current proposal. One option is a link road to the A4232. And I think the tram-train would be a major improvement on BRT, as it would avoid the problems with BRT mentioned. But I don't think BRT is really a strong contender, at least as set out in this article (it is scare mongering, a straw man, because clearly such an approach would not work). I think more regular bus services could just about cope, when combined with additional car journeys. Yes it would mean additional congestion, but that is one of the prices of living in a successful city. If the choice is between a growing but creaky Cardiff that gives opportunities to more young people in Wales, and helps drive growth.. or a somewhat less congested Cardiff and a poorer Wales, where people have fewer opportunities or need to leave for England.. I know what progressive, and "patriotic" people should choose!

And the figures cited are really pulled from thin air. A profit of £50,000 -its substantially above Redrow's average profit per house, despite house prices in Cardiff being below the UK average. Its not impossible but I'd like to see some support for this. And I don't think the land is worth £1 billion. "Clean land values" in Cardiff are about £1.25 million an acre - the topography and extra investment in infrastructure needed here would mean this land probably would achieve a fair bit less. And a lot of the land is being kept as informal green space. I think the housing element of the land is only around 350 acres or so. So thats more like £425 million, not £1 billion. That is still a big windfall gain for the land-owners but its important to get facts and figures right if you try calculating contributions to public transport etc.

I think rather than dismissing these plans out of hand, they should be seen as the start of negotiations. For contributions to transport, social housing, education infrastructure etc (there would have to be some trade-offs here). But instead, I think the 2 sources Mr Blue Sky cites are actually opposed to urban expansions in principle. And I think that actual conflicts with their so called left-wing and patriotic objectives.

Jantra

Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostThu Dec 11, 2014 9:23 pm

Mr Blue Sky wrote:Having taken the time to read the Design and Access statement, I have concluded that Plasdŵr is an ill-conceived scheme.
The notion that most journeys will be on foot or bike is ambitious, as the gradients are very hilly, and plans to force people onto buses to travel beyond Plasdŵr may come true as the Bus Rapid Transit planned for NW Cardiff will cause gridlock from Groesfaen to Castle Street.

David James of WalesOnline has written a scathing piece on Plasdŵr today, as has Daily Wales.

http://dailywales.net/2014/12/11/plans- ... -gridlock/


Well this is a shock
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Karl

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostFri Dec 12, 2014 11:04 am

I agree the David James piece is not very coherent. It assumes that development must be either brownfield or if you want a garden move to the valleys. By doing so you will only increase commuting into the city centre, the vast majority of which will be by car. The fact is that Cardiff is actually running out of brownfield space suitable for sizeable residential development. There are 1000'S of units being developed at ISV, Dumballs Rd, Ely Bridge but after that there is only room for the smaller schemes that are constantly going up in places like Splott, Butetown, Grangetown, Llanishen, Canton etc etc or subdivison of existing housing. Can anyone think of any large brownfield sites that have not already been earmarked for development?

But the transport element of this scheme is very weak. This will not be a development where the primary transport options are walking or cycling or by bus. You can build a school and shops nearby and say there you go there is no need to drive but it's simply not as easy as that. Likewise you can't assume that everyone will work in the city centre or where it is easily accessible by public transport.

The proposed improvements to the road network are inadequate. This scheme will need a rail link in addition to improved cycling facilities, a very good bus service and much improved road infrastructure. I can't see the developers stumping up for that and at the moment the Cardiff Metro scheme is stuck on a drawing board somewhere.

I'm for development of this nature particularly with 30% being affordable housing. It's needed. Cardiff is popular and people will move here for study, work or simply because they like it here. That's good news and should be encouraged. It's what makes a city successful. It's not fair to expect the additional population to be housed by subdividing terraced houses in the inner city or building housing blocks just so the owners of semi's on the fringe of the city can have their views protected. But I'm simply not convinced that the transport provision envisaged by the DAS is anywhere near adequate.
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LocalLurker

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostFri Dec 12, 2014 1:16 pm

Great news, more houses are needed! I expect the knuckledraggers from Fairwater to be in uproar, ironic as they had the same impact on Canton back in the day :lol:
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Ash

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Re: Waterhall - Fairwater

PostFri Dec 12, 2014 3:01 pm

Karl wrote:The fact is that Cardiff is actually running out of brownfield space suitable for sizeable residential development. There are 1000'S of units being developed at ISV, Dumballs Rd, Ely Bridge but after that there is only room for the smaller schemes that are constantly going up in places like Splott, Butetown, Grangetown, Llanishen, Canton etc etc or subdivison of existing housing. Can anyone think of any large brownfield sites that have not already been earmarked for development?


It's not sufficient but I suspect changes in retail and warehousing may well free up some sites that are currently retail parks and storage depots. I'm thinking of areas like Ty Glas Road and some of the older parts of Culverhouse Cross.
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