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Greenfield Developments

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Ash

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Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 4:17 pm

Jantra wrote: objective 1 funding???? would you say that has been a resounding success or not? that is EU money coming into the UK being spent in a part of the UK and it has achieved very little. Maybe just maybe the majority of Welsh landscape isn't really suited for 21st century industry


That's not quite the point I was making. The point is that fiscal tranfers by either the UK or the EU into Wales have had little effect because the Welsh Government lacks control over key economic levers. EU member states receiving fiscal transfers have a far wider range of options when it comes to using the money effectively.

Jantra

Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 5:36 pm

other than setting interest rates and tax rates, what tools doesn't the WG have that other government do?
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 5:58 pm

Jantra wrote:other than setting interest rates and tax rates, what tools doesn't the WG have that other government do?


No control over diplomatic relations, foreign policy, military matters, constitutional matters, Justice, the civil and criminal systems of law, probation, policing, energy policies over 50mw, territorial waters.

Plus as you say taxation and monetary policy.

The powers that have been devolved have only been primary lawmaking powers, without the need for London's approval, for the past three years.

Wales has fewer, and weaker, devolved powers than any other territory on earth.

Weaker and fewer powers than the Falkland Islands, Bermuda, Aruba and Greenland; all German, Italian and French regions; all US, Canadian and Australian States and territories.

So pretty rubbish, almost powerless devolution really - and even that only since 2011.

Here's a list of what is devolved:

https://www.gov.uk/devolution-settlement-wales

Jantra

Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 6:12 pm

How would control over diplomatic relations, foreign policy, military matters, constitutional matters, Justice, the civil and criminal systems of law, probation, policing, energy policies over 50mw, territorial waters improve our economy
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 7:05 pm

Jantra wrote:How would control over diplomatic relations, foreign policy, military matters, constitutional matters, Justice, the civil and criminal systems of law, probation, policing, energy policies over 50mw, territorial waters improve our economy


Can't you work this out for yourself. Unlike you, I don't spend all day on the internet arguing.

Diplomatic relations and foreign policy - we could form or leave political and trade alliances.

Criminal justice and policing - we could try and reduce the massive costs that an unequal society impose upon us through crime; we could decriminalise drugs and tax them.

Energy policies - we could invest in R & D for wave and tidal power, and then build huge schemes that export energy. We could give much bigger tax breaks to micro-hydro power projects.

Territorial waters - we could develop our tiny fishing industry.

Military matters - we could save over a billion pounds annually by cutting defence spending to 0.5% of GDP.

As for taxation and monetary policies, they are gigantic levers which would also allow us to borrow to invest in our nineteenth and twentieth century infrastructure.

Haven't you got multiple arguments to start and maintain on CCMB anyway?
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RandomComment

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Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 8:35 pm

One problem: EU transfers usually have quite stringent conditions attached to them - they have to be used for social or economic development programmes. One problem Wales had last time was that it couldn't spend as much on infrastructure as previously - it had to go into social programmes like communities first.. which were an unmitigated disaster.

And I agree that policy is an important lever for improving the economy. But it can also be an important lever for making it worse (as I think your isolationist policy would). The question should be not whether better policy can improve economic performance. Of course it can. It should instead be, would Welsh independence make better policy more likely? And indeed, sufficiently more likely that we want to give up on £8 billion on net fiscal transfers. There I'm not sure I agree - the record to date isn't exactly a glowing one in devolved policy areas (although its more mixed than disastrous as some Daily Mail headlines would suggest!).

Perhaps you think "sensible heads" like yourself with all the good ideas to improve the economy are more likely to have the ear of the government in a smaller country than a bigger one like the UK. Maybe. But maybe crack-pots with silly ideas (like leaving the EU and closing off immigration) would also get closer to power as well?

Ultimately, like most nationalists, I think what comes first is your nationalism. You want independence because you want independence - perhaps for the cultural/language issues you raise. Perhaps because you just don't like the English. Your economic arguments are then to some extent an ex poste rationalisation of your gut instinct. But ultimately, you believe your own propaganda because you are convinced that independence is right - its got to be good for the economy too? People who question your views clearly just haven't thought about any of this. You ultimately end up living in a world without constraints. So you can tax, borrow or spend more or less without consequence - the "ingenuity of the Welsh people" or "our natural resources" will mean its all right in the end.

And ultimately you resort to insulting those who question your vision for Wales. Label them plastic or quislings. That's when your irrational optimism becomes distateful bigotry.

Jantra

Re: Greenfield Developments

PostWed Oct 29, 2014 9:28 pm

@Mr blue sky

Thanks, that's all I wanted, a bit more meat on the bones and for you to explain your ideas.
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SPACCI

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Re: Greenfield Developments

PostThu Oct 30, 2014 12:10 am

Switzerland seems to be doing quite well with logistics. Wales is a net exporter. Doesn't seem the landscape prevents much in the way of logistics.

Jantra

Re: Greenfield Developments

PostThu Oct 30, 2014 12:12 am

Switzerland is bloody wonderful, let's emulate them.

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-29765623
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SPACCI

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Re: Greenfield Developments

PostThu Oct 30, 2014 12:22 am

Expertly sidestepped there, Jantra.
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