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RandomComment wrote:Peaky Plaider wrote: Having just read the reply from Random Comment I instantly get the impression that none of the poignant questions are answered.
First, I'm not sure Peaky's questions are poignant. I think they are rather simplistic and focuses on how things are classified - e.g. motorway versus dual carriageway. For example, A470 to Merthyr, much of the A55, parts of the A465, much of the A4232, the Eastern Avenue section of the A48 (and A48m) basically provide the same function to more or less the same standard.
Moreover, they don't really make realistic comparisons. Greater Manchester is a major conurbation - much larger than anything we have in Wales. It also sits on an East-West route between Liverpool and Hull, and just off a major North/South route (M6), to which it has spurs.
Cornwall, Devon, Somerset and Dorset have only 1 motorway - the M5. Essex, Suffolk, Norfolk, only has a bit of the M25 (which is really a London motorway) and the M11 in the south west corner. The North East of England has some A1(m) and and a small inner ring-road in Newcastle that has confusingly been given M designation. Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire have just the M1.
Wales doesn't have many motorways, but neither do many other parts of the country. Motorways are there to serve cross-country journeys between places with sizeable populations and significant demand (e.g. south west to Midlands, Midlands to North West, London to the Midlands and North, North West to North East) or areas with high population density. Its only really South Wales and to some extent the North Wales corridors that really satisfy that in Wales - and both have motorway or more-or-less motorway standard routes.
On the funding of rail:
- Glasgow Metro was initially built privately and opened in 1896 and was then taken over by local government
- Edinburgh tram was paid for by a combination of Scottish Govt funding and borrowing by Edinburgh council. Its extension is being funded by borrowing and a transfer from Lothian buses
- Tyne and Wear metro used old lines with the cost of the conversion being 70% funded by DfT and 30% by local sources including borrowing
- Manchester metrolink has been funded by a mix of government grant, council tax (via levies on district councils), borrowing, and contributions from private developers/organisations (e.g. Manchester Airport).
I could look at more, but I think it serves my point. Yes the UK government has often contributed, sometimes considerably. But local sources have also been important too.
And finally I don't think you addressed my pertinent point. That to think about whether Wales is "hard done by", you need to look at tax and spending in the round. Currently, Wales gets £12 billion more spent on it than it pays in taxes. In that respect, it shares much in common with other poorer parts of the UK - like N Ireland, North East England, etc. Wales accounts for about half the UK budget deficit, with 5% of the population (to be fair, most areas outside London and the South East contribute to that deficit).
A case can be made for Welsh independence - based on culture/nationalism; based on a belief that in the longer-term it could provide a catalyst for a more dynamic and prosperous Wales. But don't pretend that it wouldn't be an incredible financial wrench that would mean Wales would have to live within its means - rather than operating in a fiscal union that allows Wales to basically live beyond them at the moment.Mr Blue Sky wrote:I’m a long time member of Plaid. I’ve been arguing with Random Comment about underinvestment in Wales for 15 years, on this board. He doesn’t see our point as he is a U.K. nationalist. It’s as simple as that.
I'm neither, actually. I happen to feel pretty strongly Welsh, British and to an extent European. But I dislike nationalism as it often involves a bit of a chip on the shoulder, which means one closes ones eyes to facts, figures, debate, etc.
And I actually do listen to the points you make - I just happen to disagree with them, and provide evidence as to why I disagree. Usually related to economics and tax/spending.
The point that you fail to understand is that there have been decades of underinvestment in Wales. The Cardiff and Valley lines network is roughly the same size as Merseyrail, West Yorks, and the Tyne and Wear Metro yet these were all electrified between 50 and 20 years ago. The intercity lines to Norwich and Bournemouth were electrified in the 1960s despite those urban/metro areas being much smaller than those in south Wales. Decades of underinvestment has impacted on the competitiveness of Wales.
Going back to the airport it must be clear, even to you, that anyone living west of Bridgend has an incredibly long and expensive journey to get to an airport other than Cardiff. The flip side of this is that any companies wishing to invest in the Swansea City Region will take a look at its connectivity and be put off by the fact that it’s at least two hours from the nearest decent airport. Can you think of a metro area in EU that is the size of Swansea that doesn’t have an airport, or one offering a decent range of destinations nearby?