The Wales 'brand' in Cardiff

Yes.
Worked and lived abroad in Asia, Africa and Europe so I have seen other places.
I had forgotten how beautiful Wales was when returning home to he honest. I have loved travelling and seeing other places abroad but also feel very blessed and lucky to have so many wonderful places right in my door step.
You can't please everyone though.

jones4891- Welsh is not of interest to the vast majority of tourists, it adds very little to visitor experience or to local life, its a way to communicate, its not a culture. Its increase in use is purely down to exclusivity in schools and forms no important factor in a persons success later in life.

Fine. I wasn't saying it adds much to visitor experience. I'm guessing that you're a non-speaker and therefore it wouldn't really be for you to say what it adds to local life. However correct me if I'm wrong. My main point is Just that it's an important part of our heritage, history and culture and not some distant relic or some great cultural divider.

jones4891, the north west is a bit grim, the north east however will give you fabulous gems such as Alnwick/Bamburgh/ Newcastle/Durham/Barnard/Lindisfarne to name the most famous let alone the 'romantic ruins', although there does seem to be a few castles in the north west too (i guess you just wernt that interested in visiting them ), and England definitely has more romantic ruins.

Yes but those places are hours drive from Greater Manchester so doesn't really refute my point. And yes, as a medieval history student at the University of Manchester I was certainly interested in castles!


jones4891/Thewasp - have you really traveled outside the UK/Europe (Benidorm/Calais are not travelling extensively!), because even a trip around Britain tells you all you need to know about Wales. Go to Cornwall and tell me our beaches and seaside towns compare, go to Scotland and tell me North Wales and our castles/capital city compare, go to the lake district and tell me our reservoirs compare. Im not saying we have nothing of value in Wales, just thats theres always somewhere better and we should look at them and say what can we do to emulate their success and make things better here, not say its amazing the way it is here and make shit all effort in making it better.

Again, yes I'd describe myself as pretty well travelled having lived and worked in Asia and travelled extensively around Asia and Europe. So it's not from having narrow horizons that I dispute what you say, just obviously a more positive outlook on what we have. Yes, I think our beaches compare very favourably to those in Cornwall. They are just as clean and spectacular and are quieter. Granted we have fewer small, charming towns and yes I agree that Cardiff is no Edinburgh. Of course Wales isn't the best place in the world, but similarly it has lots going for it that probably could be better sold by the tourist authorities.
I'm going to sign off there for now as I think we'll be going round in circles if we carry on much further!

When people talk about making things better they are labeled as moaners in Wales, when people in other countries do it things get better. Well to you who want to label me and Cardiffian (seperate people thank you) as moaners i name you parochial plebs.

jones4891"I just don't agree with you here sorry. Welsh was spoken by the vast majority in 1800 but by only around half the population a century later. During the 19th century it was eradicated in various ways,..."

Couple of things..

pop of Wales 1801 587,000

pop of Wales 1911 2,421,000

that would mean Welsh speaking actually grew if half the population spoke it in 1900. Actually I don't that was the case it was less than half. But the point is the change in language is just to do with choosing to speak English and immigration. There has never been a policy to eradicate Welsh speaking. English towns and cities have been demolished moved for various reasons also.

Remember some time in the past Welsh dominated and took over other languages previously spoken in the UK, in exactly the same way. Language is organic and changes over time. Yes when language change is forced by government then you have an issue. But there is little evidence this ever happened to the welsh language.

The castles of Wales aren’t meant to be romantic. They’re brutal. A reflection of the period and purpose for which they were built. Imagine how silly a French chateaux or Rhine castle would look here. The story of Wales up to recent times is harsh. A people and country struggling to survive and keep an identity. Perhaps that’s the elephant in the room, it’s not a touristic draw for the majority of holiday makers.

jones4891"I just don't agree with you here sorry. Welsh was spoken by the vast majority in 1800 but by only around half the population a century later. During the 19th century it was eradicated in various ways,..."

Couple of things..

pop of Wales 1801 587,000

pop of Wales 1911 2,421,000

that would mean Welsh speaking actually grew if half the population spoke it in 1900. Actually I don't that was the case it was less than half. But the point is the change in language is just to do with choosing to speak English and immigration. There has never been a policy to eradicate Welsh speaking. English towns and cities have been demolished moved for various reasons also.

Remember some time in the past Welsh dominated and took over other languages previously spoken in the UK, in exactly the same way. Language is organic and changes over time. Yes when language change is forced by government then you have an issue. But there is little evidence this ever happened to the welsh language.

It amazes me how little people know about this part of our history. To say that there is no evidence that the UK government tried to eradicate Welsh is so, so wrong. Read up on the Welsh Not and the Treachery of the Blue Books.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... -languages

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_Not

A people and country struggling to survive and keep an identity.

What you mean of the Celtic immigrants from who the Welsh later diverged? Why the divergence in the past, which leaders took the different routes into the various parts of the British isles and diverged the languages and traditions? What is this identity you are holding on to? People you never met who lived in the past and who habits and traditions where made up by people you don't know. Who was in control then? What where their beliefs ? Maybe better to be identified by what you do now rather than what people have done or have been imagined to do in the past?

The past serves to inform not identify you as a person today.
All this looking back at random dates in history as some ideal time to make an identity from makes no sense.

jones4891 I suggest you look it up, the Welsh not was made by some very few welsh parents who wanted their children to learn English in school and was nothing to do with government or the English. The Blue book is just a report from some people with an opinion on welsh language from them.

Show me the UK government ever trying to eradicate the Welsh language?

Other myths I've heard from people recently

Welsh where banned from owning property by the English. This never happened

The Mines where all owned by the English. Not true many were welsh owned.

The English tried to Ban welsh. It never happened.

Jones4891 ?

So some more people speak Welsh than they did 20 years ago maybe. This is because it is being forced with less choice than 20 years ago.

The Welsh Language serves no purpose outside Wales and then consider that even today, it is not used day to day in the vast majority of this tiny country.
What I am saying is keep the Welsh Language but it should not be forced, as it serves no purpose and that a fact. Even in North Wales, if I speak to someone and then send them correspondence, most will ask for it in English.

You speak Welsh and that's fine, I dont nor do I ever wish to, yet I am proud to be Welsh too.. see my previous point about the identity issue, just between us. So now you get my point maybe

Cardiffian
I have travelled holidaying all over and certain places have amazed me...Croatia, southern France, Italy, Austria, Greece, Canada to name a few.
But Wales still has it's own beauty, something I cant put my finger on. Maybe it's the diversity of travelling from a busy Cardiff which is coming on great (please can we have a 40 story tower with a revolving restaurant at the top)to mountains or amazing beaches and castles in the middle of no where all within a 90 minute drive ?

I wasn't going to wade into this as I'm not a regular poster on CWM and discussions on Welsh identity and the language are often pointless and never-ending, but I felt I had to.

I'm a bit disappointed but not surprised by some of the comments on this thread. I do understand the mindset because, and I'm a bit ashamed to say this, for a long time as a teen and twenty-something I was a bit disdainful of ideas and displays of Welshness - it all seemed parochial and dreary in my immature mind. As I've got older, travelled to various countries, both rich and poor, violent and peaceful, and seen how much friends from overseas have loved visiting me here, I've come to appreciate Wales far more and have started learning the language over the last three years. These kinds of mindsets are inevitable when you live in a relatively poor country of a highly-centralised supranational state like the UK. Almost all of the news media and culture consumed in Wales come from London, resulting in a deep-rooted ignorance about Wales that often spills over into a cultural cringe and the mockery and resentment of any assertion of a distinctly Welsh identity (see several comments in this thread and the fledgling Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party, for example). This in turn can result in anyone showing appreciation for or interest in Welsh identity, regardless of how much of the world they've seen or their political outlook, being dismissed as parochial and somehow backward.

One thing I do outright resent is any description of the Valleys as a "wasteland". I'm from a small town north of Pontypridd and while it's still not a great place to be for an ambitious or outward-looking young adult due to economic decline and poor social opportunities, things are slowly improving and it's a highly distinct cultural region with massive potential for cultural tourism. Those on the right will scoff at any idea of promoting the industrial and radical political history of the area, but even they couldn't deny the potential. That said, even in the Valleys history far predates the Industrial Revolution; the ridges between the valleys are littered with Bronze Age burial mounds, standing stones and Roman Roads, unknown by an overwhelming majority of even local residents because of a complete absence of inclusion in school curriculums.

And what of the rest of Southeast Wales? Alongside the castles, off the top of my head there's Trellech, Caerwent, Caerleon, the Red Lady of Paviland, Tinkinswood, St Lythans and Cosmeston Village. How many of people know of Castell Morgraig above Cardiff, or Caerau Hillfort? Or that there are castles in Tonteg and Gelligaer, surrounded by modern housing developments? It seems absolutely absurd to me that Wales can have such extraordinarily visible and often well-preserved ancient history, yet it also remains neglected, unknown and un-promoted. It's not an exaggeration to say that Wales (along with the rest of Europe's Atlantic fringe) has among the densest concentration of visible and easily-accessible ancient history in the world. Continental Europe might have grander cities but, believe it or not, not every tourist demands the same old tourist sites; also, local residents in places like Barcelona, Amsterdam and Dubrovnik would prefer fewer tourists.

Wales is never going to be a destination of choice for those doing whistle-stop, one-to-two week tours of Europe from Asia or North America - nowhere in the UK except for London, Bath, Stonehenge, Stratford-upon-Avon and Edinburgh really are - but we need to be moving beyond these old ideas of identity, branding and promotion because, if we do, Wales will continue to lose out, culturally and economically.Tourism habits are undergoing a massive shift over the last five years with growing awareness of climate change, "over-tourism" and now the pandemic, and we need to adapt too.