Greenfield Developments

Pardon? Who said I was suffering from mental health? That's absurd.

Plaid come across as pro eu as they are always arguing to replace the funding shortfall with grants from Brussels.

Perhaps your issue is then with the people selling
After all, if preservation of roots is more important than money, this would manifest itself in who sold what to who.

I also don't think it's facile to question your approach to inward english migration. I do share your approach (if this is what you're after) that inward migrants should learn the language, it's rich and colourful after all. But I don't think blaming the english when the Welsh are selling their homes is the correct approach.

Thanks for the percentages, the numbers were from the top of my head and I don't think they change the point being made - that schoolchildren are almost entirely fluent in welsh in these areas and that in other areas welsh is on the rise in this demographic. What is needed is children speaking welsh outside of school - in my experience, children who attend welsh language education don't necessarily speak welsh outside of school

Perhaps you do not take an avowedly left-wing position. But that is certainly the position of your party - are you attempting to change that too to make it a right wing nationalist party? Good luck on that given the leadership!

And what is your economic and demographic plan?

The Welsh population is older partly because of older migrants, but also partly because of its internal population demographics. Either way, even without migration of older people, the population will stage age more rapidly because of the existing demographic structure. Do you propose that we boot out people who have been living here for years?

You don't want "Welsh culture diluted". So that means severely restricted migration from England and from outside the UK. In order for this to be legal you want to leave the UK. Which means giving up the £ billions in net fiscal transfers to Wales. Which means either cuts in public services or increases in taxes. Which would likely drive people from Wales - particularly the young, ambitious, and affluent. Which would further undermine the tax base of Wales. And so on in a viscious spiral.

What is the policy response to this? Is it the age-old plan to try to extort money from our neighbours by charging huge fees for water from Welsh resevoirs? Not really a starter I'm afraid as it would piss off our most important trading partner who would respond tit-for-tat with things that would hurt Wales (vetoing free trade deals with Europe or banning other Welsh goods); and would lead to a scramble for new sources of water. So we'd see a bunch of new resevoirs across Northern England. Bye bye water windfall.

Now this might seem to be off topic. But it isn't really. Because without such an isolationist policy, restricting house building just means higher prices which hurts the "Welsh communities" you want to protect. And with such an isolationist policy - our economy tanks leading to a downward spiral. The other countries do well because they aren't actually isolationist - they welcome lots of migrants (Switzerland), or have natural resources that aren't subject to the same constraints as Wales' (Norway) - oil is a lot less abundant than water! Plus they've long had strong fiscal positions whilst Wales is massively in deficit.

But going back to the housing issue more directly. You are right that granting planning permission creates windfall profits for those whose land is given planning permission. But there are options to share those profits or limit the size of them. There can be planning gain supplement taxes (or capital gains taxes). And freeing up the planning process so there is more developable land (and, if there is the demand for it, more housing being built) will reduce the rents/profits generated by the artificial scarcity currently imposed.

And I refer back to earlier - letting Cardiff grow means a stronger Welsh economy, and more opportunity to people from places like the Valleys and rural Wales to stay in their country, rather than move to England in search of jobs.

Cambo the libertarian

I've always said over zealous state interference in planning stifles economic development. There has to a trade off of course but as dai has alluded to, if you restrict supply prices rise.

And would wales really want to go toe to toe with England in a trade war?

Jantra/Feedback- here is what I thought was your admission of raving lunacy:
http://www.ccmb.co.uk/fudforum/index.ph ... sg_4320590

Cambo Dai/London David/Random Comment
What effect has untrammelled English immigration had on the Welsh language and culture over the past century? This thread is about green field housing construction. Building more houses than the existing Welsh population need or can afford will accelerate the Anglicisation of Wales.

I completely agree that Wales would suffer economically in the short term after independence. But after a few years we would find our way to prosperity, building on our strengths:
natural resources;
high-class tourism exploiting our land and seascapes (rather than the cut-price caravan tourism of today);
adding value to our food industry;
our superb (considering our population and wealth) university sector;
our aero and motor industry;
competitive advantages and niche taxation policies exploiting our proximity to the wealthiest city in Europe and the most powerful city in the world - your spiritual home- London.
Wales would be fine and a confident, wealthy country within a generation, just like many small anglophone nations that have gained independence - Ireland, Malta, New Zealand and Cyprus, for example -all with wealthier populations than Wales.

Wales has gone backward in the past century and dependence on the UK and/or EU is not serving us well. We've been starved of investment and the population is largely passive and supine, or English bootlickers.

By the way you are very patronising for such a young man. I would imagine that our paths will cross on official business one day and I really hope to put you in your place. I do not like you at all.

But I never did like plastic Welshmen or wannabe Englishmen and I especially despise British nationalists posing as bleeding heart, politically-correct 'progressive left' know-it-alls.

At least with Jantra his approach can be written off as eccentricity. With you I feel there is a darker agenda at play.

I hope that you will be proud of the mess that Wales will be in if your ilk continue to wreak havoc on its people and economy. Your lack of vision doesn't surprise me at all, after all you have suckled at the teat of institutions spawned by the biggest and most destructive empire of all time - England.

Cambo Dai indeed.

That was me criticising someone using mental health as a means of attacking a poster. It's not big or clever. It's no different from accusing someone of being a crIpple, it's just not funny. Not sure why you think that is me suggesting I have mental health issues, I just don't see the humour in people suggesting others are mentally ill because they disagree with their world view.

Back to the thread topic....

Mr Blue Sky - why can't we do all of those things as we are now? I agree with the areas you've highlighted although I'd add in medical devices as an area of excellence as well.

Also, can you define the criteria of a plastic Welshman for me please?

I guess you're somebody with some kind of public profile - would you like to say who you are?

Can I request a name change for 'Mr Blue Sky' to 'Typical Plaid Bigot' please.

Wales for the Welsh, Cardiff for the Cardiffians, Canton for the Hipsters, you stay where you belong. What nonsense.

Can I request a name change for 'Mr Blue Sky' to 'Typical Plaid Bigot' please.

Wales for the Welsh, Cardiff for the Cardiffians, Canton for the Hipsters, you stay where you belong. What nonsense.

you should watch it, he'll be back with some witty one liners and if you're really lucky, he will give you a new nickname as well

As Plaid is pro EU it supports the free movement of people within the European Union. Nowhere does Plaid state Wales for the Welsh.

No, but Mr Blue Sky seems to.

Going back to the economic case for independence.

First, the hit would be very substantial indeed. Wales gets a net fiscal transfer of something like £8 billion per year from the rest of the UK. Given an economy of perhaps £50-55 billion, forgoing that means an immediate hit equal to around 16% of the Welsh economy. Or another way - given government spending on behalf of Wales of around £35 billion (including things currently devolved and non-devolved) that means spending cuts of almost a quarter - i.e. we could stop spending on health and secondary education perhaps? Or get rid of the state pension and housing benefit? Given that income tax and NICs together raise around £8.5 billion - how about doubling them?

But of course with higher tax rates .. people would work less and/or leave Wales.. which would worsen our situation.

The process of adjustment wouldn't be "a bit tough".. it would be excruciating. I agree that in the long term Wales could find a way to cope but it could very well find the new equilibrium is one where it produces more than now but its people are still poorer - because they wouldn't benefit from the £8 billion in fiscal transfers I talked about!

You list examples of small countries doing well - and it is true, small countries can do well. But you don't analyse the transition these countries faced - Ireland remained poor for 70 years after independence. Nor, do you account for the fact that when these countries got independence, that they were not beneficiaries of large fiscal transfers from outside. In 1920 the state was just much smaller than it is now, so Ireland lost less. (It also managed to walk away from the National Debt - something the UK would not now agree to!). New Zealand, Malta and Cyprus never got fiscal transfers from the rest of the UK except for some low-cost defence. In other words they were fiscally independent long before they were formally independent!

And your advantages:
natural resources;
- what exactly? Water and Wind can be found elsewhere so we can't charge too much. Coal - highly polluting. Shale gas - could be some revenued to be got from here, but not for quite a few years, and the more successful the industry is world wide, the lower prices will be, so less profit. Wales is probably a marginal producer too given our topography. And its more pollution and disruption which goes against the green tinge of many nationalists.

high-class tourism exploiting our land and seascapes (rather than the cut-price caravan tourism of today);
- why can't we do that now as part of the Union? What reason is there to think it would be more successful if not? What if we use a separate currency.. wouldn't that put some people off? And outside the EU would mean the UK needed border controls with Wales - which would definitely put people off.

adding value to our food industry;
- again, why can't that be done now? Again, access to EU markets at risk.

our superb (considering our population and wealth) university sector;
- we have one World top 200 uni, and a bunch of mediocre ones. Some successes in spin outs. But given pressure to cut spending or raise taxes surely the uni sector would come under pressure too? We'd lose access to EU and UK research money.

our aero and motor industry;
- again, what benefit does independence bring them? Could it not mean risks to markets - esp European and defence related markets?

competitive advantages and niche taxation policies exploiting our proximity to the wealthiest city in Europe and the most powerful city in the world - your spiritual home- London.
- about the only one that has some scope to run. The classic "beggar thy neighbour" tax competition argument. Perhaps, but the remaining-UK could also cut taxes and we'd speed up a race to the bottom. And we'd be outside the EU so not sure we'd be attractive to many multinationals.

The economic "autarky" plan which makes your housing plan stack up - just doesn't work. Its a recipe for disaster.

Bring on the houses! They're needed to Wales can grow economically and give opportunity to her children.