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Cardiff airport

if it's about Cardiff.. Sport, Entertainment, Transportation, Business, Development Projects, Leisure, Eating, Drinking, Nightlife, Shopping, Train Spotting! etc.. then we want it here!
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 8:41 am

Great news. MPs recommend that APD should be devolved to Wales.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48585007

What say you now our resident “expert”?
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Cwlcymro

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 10:35 am

Mr Blue Sky wrote:Great news. MPs recommend that APD should be devolved to Wales.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48585007

What say you now our resident “expert”?


Bloody hell, when even David Davies, the most Tory-like Tory in Wales, is recommending devolving power to Wales then you know there's been a strong case made!
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Mr Blue Sky

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 10:46 am

Cwlcymro wrote:
Mr Blue Sky wrote:Great news. MPs recommend that APD should be devolved to Wales.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-48585007

What say you now our resident “expert”?


Bloody hell, when even David Davies, the most Tory-like Tory in Wales, is recommending devolving power to Wales then you know there's been a strong case made!


True, it makes me question the mindset of any Welsh person who opposes this - excepting, of course, those who oppose for environmental reasons. I personally have only made one return journey on a plane in the last 15 years, which was to Bordeaux for Wales’ match against Slovakia in 2016. For the semi-final match against Portugal in Lyon I travelled by train from the U.K., which I found much more pleasurable. I recognise though that Wales is poorly served by air travel and that, despite my personal objections to this mode of transport, it is part and parcel of modern life.
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Lewisbeecham

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 11:34 am

I am surprised by this, but also delighted. I wonder how Alan Cairns feels about this decision? Qatar will be extremely happy to hear about this, £78 (£80 from April 2020) of the price on the Cardiff - Doha leg goes straight to Air Passenger Duty. A significant chunk.

The Bristol Airport CEO was adamant that one of their primary airlines (Ryanair) has personally told him that they would switch their entire network to Cardiff if APD was devolved and abolished. However given that the Wales has declared a climate emergency I can't see them completely abolishing the tax. It'll be interesting to see how this plays over the coming years. Either way it has potential to really make Cardiff competitive, which can only be a good thing for the economy.

On the environment factor I've noticed recently that Cardiff Airport has made lots of improvements such as switching to electric vehicles and massively reducing it's plastic waste.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostTue Jun 11, 2019 11:41 am

Unfortunately, MPs recommendation means nothing unless the Treasury backs it. The decision is the governments, not the Welsh Affairs Committee.
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Ash

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 7:46 am

That's true but the government is obliged to make a formal reply to the report. At the very least it will make the UK Government spell out the reasons for its stand.
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Cwlcymro

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostWed Jun 12, 2019 11:11 pm

Ash wrote:That's true but the government is obliged to make a formal reply to the report. At the very least it will make the UK Government spell out the reasons for its stand.


Because Alun Cairns cares more for Bristol and his chances of a future peerage than he does Wales?
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RandomComment

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostThu Jun 13, 2019 6:40 pm

Should I risk it? Ah go on.

I've not been persuaded by the case for devolution of APD. Just because Wales could potentially benefit if it were devolved and cut isn't to me a good enough reason.

(a) Because I'm not considering just Wales. In a Fiscal Union such as we have now, I think it is important to think of impacts on the Fiscal Union as a whole. I live in London. Should I support devolution of income tax to London because I'm a Londoner, and London could afford to cut income tax if so much of it wasn't siphoned off to the rest of the UK? No, because I care about the rest of the UK. Even if I care about Wales more than the rest of the UK, I wouldn't always support things that could benefit Wales, if I thought it could have negative impacts elsewhere.

(b) Because I'm not sure its in Wales' interests to start unpicking the Fiscal Union. We're heading to a situation where the devolved governments have and use certain tax powers to compete more with the rest of the UK (i.e. England). Corporation tax in NI. APD in Wales. But at the same time want to maintain the Fiscal Union, which like it or lump it involves quite large fiscal transfers from England (and specifically S. E England) to places like Wales. Will the (S.E) English be willing to continue with such large transfers if the devolved governments are trying to use their devolved powers to compete with England all the time?

So while Wales might benefit from APD devolution, even if I only cared about Wales, I'd be worried that I could be risking a lot (English attitudes to the Fiscal Union) for what is actually only ever going to be a very modest gain (APD devolution is not gonna be a game changer, economically).

Some of the arguments made in favour aren't especially compelling either. For example, the "overcrowding" of the skies in S. E England is possibly an argument for lower APD outside of S. E England. But that could include Bristol, Manchester, Newcastle - not just Wales and Scotland. We wouldn't really address that overcrowding problem (Cardiff is only 1 airport and a small one at that), and we'd be introducing a new distortion in pricing between Cardiff and Bristol, Birmingham, etc.

I also think it'd be rather odd for the Welsh Govt to abolish APD after declaring a climate emergency and halting the M4 relief road partly on those grounds. Abolition of APD alongside the lack of VAT on airline tickets and lack of fuel duty on airline fuel, means there'd in effect be a big subsidy for air travel out of Wales (relative to other things people and business could spend their money on, and relative to air travel out of England).

I expect to be shouted down, called traitor etc. But I think one problem with our current devolution debate is that its doing things piece-meal rather than looking as a whole at the fiscal architecture of the Union. (People like Gerry Holtham have tried to do that, but they weren't really starting-from-scratch analyses of what should and shouldn't be devolved based on how much we want to share, where we want local discretion, etc). And frankly, that devolution is seen as an issue for Wales, Scotland and NI. But given its in the context of a fiscal union with England, it affects England too - and we should remember that.
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Simon__200

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostSat Jun 15, 2019 3:44 am

Yes, if we all start competing with each other in such matters, it's the old "race to the bottom" situation where nobody ends up winning except the airlines.
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Ash

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Re: Cardiff airport

PostSat Jun 15, 2019 11:45 am

Okay, I'll bite, Random, and no, I'm not going to call you a traitor or anything like that! You present a reasoned arguement which I happen to disagree with. Here's why.

If we were to follow your logic through to its conclusion, all taxes would be entirely uniform across the UK. That's never been the case before in modern times. Local authorities have always had the power to raise or lower rates / council tax to take the needs and views of their electors into account. Are you seriously suggesting that national governments should be denied the flexibility given to county and even community councils?

Now we can argue about which taxes or elements of taxes should or should not be devolved but I would argue that to devolve none at all is to infantalise the devolved bodies by allowing them to blame "Westminster" for their own failures while claiming credit for their successes.

When it comes to APD, it's true that Carwyn Jones government signalled that it intended to abolish APD on long distance flights and some domestic UK routes to make up for the poor rail connectivity between south Wales and major cities in the north of England and Scotland.

The Drakeford government's stance seems more nuanced, restrained as it by the Wellbeing of Future Generations Act. The new governnment line is that APD would only be cut where the result would be carbon neutral or better. I presume that means where the carbon produced by the aircraft would be ofset by the carbon saved by journeys not being taken to Heathrow / Gatwick etc to board flights. It seems a sensible approach to me.

Incidently, the inspector's report on the M4 relief road found that the scheme would be carbon neutral. That wasn't one of the reasons given for its cancelation. It was cancelled on grounds of cost and the enviromental impact on the Gwent levels.
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