Grangetown Tram Shed

I wouldn't go that far. It's marginal right - the economic output associated with it, even if you include all the indirect effects will be pretty small beer. "Big Drivers" for Cardiff are people like Admiral, or L&G, or Deloitte, or Tesco, even the WMC. Chapter is still a local small operation. Doing great work, adding to the vibrancy of the city. But not important in any quantitative economic sense.

It depends how you judge these things, I guess. The council's own economic impact study says that Chapter has 120 directly employed staff, £4 million direct turnover and 300 people working for other on-site businesses. That's not bad for an incubator and I'm guessing there are a lot of companies that started at Chapter that have relocated to other areas.

Deloitte currently employ 500 and are looking to increase to a thousand. They're 'pretty small beer' to use your own sneering language.

Why do people have a downer on local successes? This pathetic lack of self confidence cripples Wales.

Is that quantitative enough for you?

I wasn't being down on local success.

Chapter's 120 directly employed staff will include lots of low paid and part time work. That's not being said in a sneering way, just a factual one.

Deloittes 500 (soon 1000) would be more full time and higher paid. And would also have indirect employment effects via suppliers (similar to Chapter).

I wasn't saying that we should be down on Chapter at all. Or that what they were doing was unimportant, or irrelevant to the cultural or economic life of Cardiff.

Its just we don't need hyperbole. It isn't a significant economic driver. To pretend it is, or huff and puff with feigned outrage just isn't warranted.

I wasn't being down on local success.

Chapter's 120 directly employed staff will include lots of low paid and part time work. That's not being said in a sneering way, just a factual one.

Deloittes 500 (soon 1000) would be more full time and higher paid. And would also have indirect employment effects via suppliers (similar to Chapter).

I wasn't saying that we should be down on Chapter at all. Or that what they were doing was unimportant, or irrelevant to the cultural or economic life of Cardiff.

Its just we don't need hyperbole. It isn't a significant economic driver. To pretend it is, or huff and puff with feigned outrage just isn't warranted.

Chapter has a huge effect on the cultural life of Cardiff. And in Canton, house prices near to the centre are reaching towards Pontcanna levels.

There are intangible benefits that only become apparent when you know an area well.

Having lived near Chapter for two decades, my observation is that it has been the main driver behind the renaissance of Canton, as its bar is a focal point for all kinds of groups, and its facilities are so comprehensive that you can easily spend a day there doing different things.

Personally it is not my cup of tea, as hipsters, ageing greenies and yummy mummies get right on my tits. But I still use it for meetings because it is the best facility for ad hoc business get togethers in Cardiff.

Look at how prices have risen over the past five years in the streets surrounding Chapter - you will find that they've gone up more quickly than anywhere else in Cardiff.

The plethora of hipster joints nearby, from Chai Street to the Printhaus to Duck Egg Bleu would probably not be there without Chapter's continued rise. Canton would have had its renaissance without Chapter, but it wouldn't have been anywhere near as spectacular.

The area around the tram shed is ripe for a similar makeover - there isn't a single coffee shop on Clare Road. The benefits could spill over into Riverside - the junction of Tudor Street and Clare St/Rd is pretty unpleasant at times.

This is, as far as I can see, a win-win project.

As a resident just off Cornwall Street, I welcome this development and hope it can breath life into Saltmead. A bump in house prices with this and the development of Central Square would be welcomed as well (The estate agent said Grangetown was an up and coming area )

I will pop a long to have a gander on Sunday at the consultation event anyhow

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-on/a ... rs-8896400

Its just we don't need hyperbole. It isn't a significant economic driver. To pretend it is, or huff and puff with feigned outrage just isn't warranted.

I don't think I used hyperbole. I quoted the economic impact asessment. You stated your opinion. I used facts - you huffed and puffed. Simple ask. Prove your point.

The facts are out there. The economic impact study says Chapter contributes £24 million per annum to the Cardiff economy. That doesn't include businesses that started at Chapter and have moved off site. If that isn't a significant economic driver I really don't know what is - some London company relocating a call centre, I presume!

I'm happy to have this arguement with you but can we do it on that basis of facts - not your opinions and assertions?

a) Cardiff's economy is something like £10,000 million a year in terms of value added. Even at the stated "economic impact", this is 0.2% of that.

b) In general, these economic assessments significantly overstate the impacts of particular firms, or industries. Why? Because they don't capture the value added by the company or industry - in effect profit+wages - but the total turnover. If you count the turnover of all businesses you get double counting. For instance, you count the beer sold in the bar 3 times say - when its sold by the brewery, when its sold by the wholesaler, and when its sold by the bar. If you add up each to get the "economic impact" of the drinks industry, you get an overstatement. What you need to do is take revenue - non labour costs, for each company, and add that up. Why do these reports not do it? Because fundamentally they are PR exercises by the companies or industries in question. So they have an incentive to overstate impact.

I've not been able to find the £24 million figure you quote. Where is this assessment? I have been able to find a figure for the turnover of chapter of £4 million in a Cardiff council document on it (formerly.cardiff.gov.uk/objview.asp?object_id=29447). Note this is turnover, not value added. Take some off for the inputs it buys, and you might get say £3 million direct value added. 0.03% of Cardiff's total.

Now you might say, it has wider benefits - associated spending in restaurants and bars nearby; attracting tourists to the city; the impact of the businesses that are based in the Chapter Building, which you might argue would not be there without the impetus of Chapter (I think the subsidised rents are a more likely contributor). The same document quotes a 6-1 "multiplier effect" for investment in the arts. So is that £24 million = £4m*6?

Even taking the multiplier at face value, the multiplier refers to the multiplier on arts subsidy - not overall arts sector turnover. Its saying if govt provides a £1 million subsidy, you'd get £6 million back. Not that if total spending on the arts, including entry fees, shop takings, etc is £4 million, the overall impact is £24 million. You can't multiply total turnover by a multiplier for the subsidy element of the turnover.

And secondly, these multipliers are dodgy as hell as well. Usual methodology to calculate is to look at a subsidised arts event that costs £1 million to put on. And then show that compared to other times, or other places £6 million is spent in the vicinity of the event on catering, accommodation, support services etc. But that is £6 million that could have been spent at other times, or other areas. Its not new money, just money shifted around geographically or inter-temporally.

So yes, happy to talk facts. And those figures you are bandying about are not facts - they are dodgy estimates, with a dose of double counting, and a poorly defined counterfactual.

I didn't mean to insult you personally. But I do think you were rather unfair on what I said. I wasn't showing a "pathetic lack of self confidence" or "putting down local success". I think Chapter is a great success. Its a huge cultural driver, and has a notable local economic impact in its immediate environs. But it ain't a big economic driver of the city as a whole. And I do think you are huffing and puffing a bit: "some London company relocating a call centre, I presume!". Start off with a dig at the evil metropolitan monster; then through in the dreaded call centre; and then put words in my mouth. I was talking about big companies with major operations in the city, with lots of roles paying far more than the typical "call centre" job. I also mentioned Admiral - a major home grown company. That's hardly down on local success right? I'd like to see many more Welsh companies grow like that!

just to add my two penneth. its not necessarily double counting if the inputs are sourced outside of Cardiff (assuming we are looking at Cardiff only). However, given Chapter is predominantly service I'd also suggest it probably is. either way it is moot. Ash is suggesting Chapter has provided the city with an increase in cultural experience which is certainly part of our economic activity.

It may not provide the big GVA numbers of say Admiral but it adds far more than just its quantitative measure. Admiral allows the people who work there to live, Chapter is all about letting people feel alive and both cannot (and should not) be measured in the same way.

just to add my two penneth. its not necessarily double counting if the inputs are sourced outside of Cardiff (assuming we are looking at Cardiff only). However, given Chapter is predominantly service I'd also suggest it probably is. either way it is moot. Ash is suggesting Chapter has provided the city with an increase in cultural experience which is certainly part of our economic activity.

It may not provide the big GVA numbers of say Admiral but it adds far more than just its quantitative measure. Admiral allows the people who work there to live, Chapter is all about letting people feel alive and both cannot (and should not) be measured in the same way.

Well said. Which institutions are a bigger deal than Chapter in Cardiff?

The NHS, the Council, Welsh Government, HMRC, Admiral, Celsa, L&G, Lloyds, the WMC, Hugh James, McDonalds, Tesco, UHW, CRI, Marks & Spencer, Asda, Cardiff Bus, Brains, Arriva Trains, ABP, Principality BS, Millennium Stadium, CCFC, Cardiff and Vale College, the four Universities, Memory Lane, maybe the National Museum, Boots, Sainsburys, Morrisons, Aldi and Lidl.

That's about it I think. So If you take all of the separate businesses and institutions in Cardiff and rank them in terms if their economic impact, I'd say that Chapter is in the top 40 out of many thousands.

You can use statistics to "prove" virtually anything....

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... ed-9041508

Planning officer recommends that permission is granted. Full steam ahead

Well, that was quick.

The detached building at the Clare Rd end of the site has scaffolding up and is being re-roofed. According to the plans this is the Cafe / Bar element of the scheme.