Today's Vote

The xenophobic, racist bigots who voted out.......

Do you realise how one-eyed this makes you appear?

Remember this is a democracy. Sometimes, things happen that you may not like or agree with.

Less one eyed than the xenophobic, racist, bigoted fools who have buggered up the lives of future generations due to misplaced hate and outright lies from the leave campaign. Immigration isn't going to stop (See Dan Hannan on Newsnight), the money sent to the EU isn't going to be spent on the NHS instead (See that charlatan Farage on Good Morning Britain), heck over a million Brexiters already Bregret their decision and would have voted to stay if they thought their vote would've counted... idiots (See the Leave cheerleading Daily Mail). Leaving the EU will be disastrous, already the UK, the 5th biggest economy in the world, has slipped behind France to 6th and thousands of jobs are being moved to the continent.

The valley oiks have voted for a poorer, less employed, insular Wales. Congratulations.

So what do you suggest. Only Guardian reader's votes count?

Remainers are still very annoyed and quite fearful - which more so than Leave voters would have been if we had stayed in (I think lots of Remainers only realised how much they cared after the vote... and many Leave votes realised actually how little they really cared). So people are saying things in highly emotional and sometimes not very well-considered ways.

I think what LocalLurker means is that it is very disappointing that an area of the country that benefits most from EU funding (being a large net recipient), and which has very low levels of migration... voted for an outcome that will almost certainly leave them poorer (both the direct loss of money, and the knock-on effects of a weaker economy), when the supposed "gain" of lower migration won't really affect them (so few migrants anyway). And that how could one explain that apart from some wilful ignorance and at least a bit of simple prejudice.

I am torn at the moment between an anger at the speed at which Vote Leave are backpeddling on key campaign themes - whether direct claims, or 'dog whistles'.. and my strong belief that things will get worse if we continue fighting over the referendum (even if, like many millions of others, I feel it was "won" by lies, manipulation, and people allowing themselves to be fooled by this - despite there being a lot of hard nosed analyses out there).

and apologies to anyone from the valleys reading this thread. most of my family live in the valleys so I found them being described as 'oiks' pretty offensive to say the least - regardless of how they voted. Please 'don't shoot the messenger' Cardiff Wales Map forum is leaving all opinions so the reader can make their own judgements as to the validity of that opinion.

Remainers are still very annoyed and quite fearful - which more so than Leave voters would have been if we had stayed in (I think lots of Remainers only realised how much they cared after the vote... and many Leave votes realised actually how little they really cared). So people are saying things in highly emotional and sometimes not very well-considered ways.

I think what LocalLurker means is that it is very disappointing that an area of the country that benefits most from EU funding (being a large net recipient), and which has very low levels of migration... voted for an outcome that will almost certainly leave them poorer (both the direct loss of money, and the knock-on effects of a weaker economy), when the supposed "gain" of lower migration won't really affect them (so few migrants anyway). And that how could one explain that apart from some wilful ignorance and at least a bit of simple prejudice.

I am torn at the moment between an anger at the speed at which Vote Leave are backpeddling on key campaign themes - whether direct claims, or 'dog whistles'.. and my strong belief that things will get worse if we continue fighting over the referendum (even if, like many millions of others, I feel it was "won" by lies, manipulation, and people allowing themselves to be fooled by this - despite there being a lot of hard nosed analyses out there).

oh so Valley folk can't have a viewpoint on the EU and whether they feel as a country we are better off in or out - rather they should not bite the hand that feeds them!! isn't that very condescending?

I'm not saying anything of the sort. People are entitled to their opinions. And I am entitled to think that those opinions don't make much sense. I really really really do think that many people voted not knowing fully what they were voting against (people's understanding of the EU's institutions is pretty thin on the ground in this country) and what they were voting for (because it was never properly spelled out, and we have seen backtracks on key campaigning issues already).

Back to the issue of the Valleys voting...

If we accept EU migration is very low, and cannot explain pressure on services or long-term unemployment (which far pre-dates EU migration), then in order believe that the Valleys will be better off from voting out you'd have to believe that economic growth would be substantially higher outside the EU to make up for the direct loss of funding. You'd also have to ignore the fact that the leading advocates of Brexit - Farage, Gove, Johnson, Fox, Davies - all come from a position of wanting less redistribution, a less regulated labour market, and a roll-back of the state, perhaps even in healthcare.

Alternatively, you might just care about the supremacy of the UK parliament. But I somehow doubt as a working class person in a struggling Valley community - and I'm from the Valleys don't forget, and go back regularly -, thats what really matters to you. You want more opportunities, more security and more certainty in your life. You feel you don't have that so you vote "against the establishment" - while actually voting alongside a particularly priveledged part of the establishment - in the belief that things cannot get worse, or that people will be forced to sit up and listen. Instead that protest vote leads to less certainty, and fewer opportunities and empowers people who want to further undermine the remaining vestiges of employment protection and the welfare state. And who concoct a deal with the Remainers ("we have to recognise we only narrowly won this vote) which does not really address the issue of immigration, which was so potent in the campaigning.

So with all of this I think its very very reasonable for Remainers to be frustrated, worried, disappointed.. and to feel that many Leavers probably did not think things through deeply enough, and maybe still don't realise they have voted to make the problems that worry them worse rather than better.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. People are entitled to their opinions. And I am entitled to think that those opinions don't make much sense. I really really really do think that many people voted not knowing fully what they were voting against (people's understanding of the EU's institutions is pretty thin on the ground in this country) and what they were voting for (because it was never properly spelled out, and we have seen backtracks on key campaigning issues already).

Back to the issue of the Valleys voting...

If we accept EU migration is very low, and cannot explain pressure on services or long-term unemployment (which far pre-dates EU migration), then in order believe that the Valleys will be better off from voting out you'd have to believe that economic growth would be substantially higher outside the EU to make up for the direct loss of funding. You'd also have to ignore the fact that the leading advocates of Brexit - Farage, Gove, Johnson, Fox, Davies - all come from a position of wanting less redistribution, a less regulated labour market, and a roll-back of the state, perhaps even in healthcare.

Alternatively, you might just care about the supremacy of the UK parliament. But I somehow doubt as a working class person in a struggling Valley community - and I'm from the Valleys don't forget, and go back regularly -, thats what really matters to you. You want more opportunities, more security and more certainty in your life. You feel you don't have that so you vote "against the establishment" - while actually voting alongside a particularly priveledged part of the establishment - in the belief that things cannot get worse, or that people will be forced to sit up and listen. Instead that protest vote leads to less certainty, and fewer opportunities and empowers people who want to further undermine the remaining vestiges of employment protection and the welfare state. And who concoct a deal with the Remainers ("we have to recognise we only narrowly won this vote) which does not really address the issue of immigration, which was so potent in the campaigning.

So with all of this I think its very very reasonable for Remainers to be frustrated, worried, disappointed.. and to feel that many Leavers probably did not think things through deeply enough, and maybe still don't realise they have voted to make the problems that worry them worse rather than better.

well nobody could argue that that isn't a reasonable opinion, and you agree that people are entitled to opinions - Nevertheless it does rather suggest that it is your belief that if people had your knowledge then they would of course have voted to remain, which is really saying that they just don't understand the facts in the same way that you do! - that in my book is condescending, you don't know the exact reason that each individual voted the way they did?

The vitriol on here is very distasteful - I don't particularly like the idea that many people who visit with an interest in Cardiff developments need to be called Moronic and Racist and god help them if they're from the valleys as well!! If people don't like the fact that I don't want that on this forum then please feel free to flounce! frankly such poison wont be missed

I repeat I am not calling anyone moronic or racist or anysuch. Just that I think they were misguided and misled. I don't claim that is the view of everyone, nor even the majority of those who voted leave. My best friend was a Vote Leave campaigner in Central London (a pretty thankless job) who knew exactly what he was voting for. But conversations with people over the weekend, including my housemate (originally from Llanrumney), and just a perusal of the media make me think that a substantial minority of leave voters - enough to swing the result for sure - did not have the information they needed or did not fully think through all the ramifications. If you think that is "condescending" I'm sorry. But it isn't vitriol - for that, I suggest you take a look at all the vitriol and indeed veiled threats that has been spewed my way in the past by certain members of the board, both in the run up to this referendum, and on other issues (e.g. housing on greenfield sites).

This is an issue that has divided the country basically down the middle. Its an issue that relates intimately to development (which is economically driven). So I think its natural there is a discussion and even argument about it here - which is about all things Cardiff. I think some of the rhetoric and insults need to be toned down, from both sides. But at the end of the day we may just need to agree to disagree on how good or bad the outcome of this referendum is going to be (we'll start to see that over the coming weeks, months and years). Which side we think led the least scrupulous campaign. And, for that matter, whether we think some people voted against their interests, because they did not take a step back to consider fully where their interests lay. That is the case nearly all the time in politics - its just time the stakes are that much higher and the emotions that much stronger.

OK so what you're saying is that you feel that you are in control of more facts and are better informed than others that voted to leave the EU - but that doesn't strike you as condescending?

I think some of the rhetoric and insults need to be toned down, from both sides. But at the end of the day we may just need to agree to disagree on how good or bad the outcome of this referendum is going to be (we'll start to see that over the coming weeks, months and years). Which side we think led the least scrupulous campaign. And, for that matter, whether we think some people voted against their interests, because they did not take a step back to consider fully where their interests lay. That is the case nearly all the time in politics - its just time the stakes are that much higher and the emotions that much stronger.

Well that's fine and exactly what I asked for

Depressingly, the Leave voters that I've spoken to don't appear to have known shit from clay when it came to focusing on the reasons for determining why they voted out.

" I haven't had a pay rise in 5 years so I'm voting Leave" and

"Cigarettes will be cheaper if we leave and I'm a smoker so it'll be better for me"

were the first two answers!!!!!!!

I've been flabbergasted at just how little the Average Joe knew about the EU before they voted. This type of great British ignorance has sold our country down the river. It's tragic.

Depressingly, the Leave voters that I've spoken to don't appear to have known shit from clay when it came to focusing on the reasons for determining why they voted out.

" I haven't had a pay rise in 5 years so I'm voting Leave" and

"Cigarettes will be cheaper if we leave and I'm a smoker so it'll be better for me"

were the first two answers!!!!!!!

I've been flabbergasted at just how little the Average Joe knew about the EU before they voted. This type of great British ignorance has sold our country down the river. It's tragic.

Whilst of course every 'remainer' is an expert! It's the same message I'm afraid the assumption that those in the remain camp are so intelligent and have all the facts whereas the other side are shall we say less informed! At least local lurker cut to the chase on his opinions!