Central Square

Karl, two or three years ago I raised many of the points that Moyceyyy and Cen are making re: the bus station. Your view that having an integrated transport hub isn't really important is merely your view. It is much better to have an integrated transport hub than to not have one especially as Cardiff aims to increase its population by 25%, roll out the Metro, and reduce car journeys within the city to 50% of all journeys.

Your assertion that 80% of bus journeys don't end at the bus station underlines the fact that not having an integrated transport hub will mean that fewer people have the opportunity to use such a hub as an interchange. In London all transport planning emphasises the role that interchanges should play - bus to rail, rail to tube, tube to DLR, DLR to Boris bike.

It is a no-brainer to build a larger bus station, integrated with the train station if your city is expanding and you are introducing a Metro that will allow travellers to use one ticket for rail and bus. 14 bays will not be enough. Ramesh Patel and Rightacres have botched this scheme.

My assertion (and its guesswork on my part) is that 80% of Cardiff Bus users (of which I am one) do not board at the station and instead use the various other stops dotted around the city centre. That may change with the development of Central Square as of course there will be a lot more people who will work in the immediate vicinity.

I think you misinterpret what I say. I'm ambivalent about having an integrated transport hub not against. On the basis that there is space and the will to build one then why not. Proximity to the train station is probably a good idea and an indoor bus station is many leagues better than the windswept shithole that was there before.

My main comments were in response to the general view that the building as a whole including the PRS and office elements is awful in aesthetic terms. I don't really agree. I think people were seduced by the curved design which I'm not sure was anything other than a example of what could be built and now the design has changed are really unhappy. I think it's ok -- I like the office element better than the PRS block but with decent materials and ground floor activity I think it could be a solid addition to the cityscape. This is my view only - others are free to express their views.

Your assertion that 80% of bus journeys don't end at the bus station underlines the fact that not having an integrated transport hub will mean that fewer people have the opportunity to use such a hub as an interchange. In London all transport planning emphasises the role that interchanges should play - bus to rail, rail to tube, tube to DLR, DLR to Boris bike.

There are a lot of modal changes in London journeys, it is true. However, the number of integrated hubs between buses and tubes, trains, etc, is actually relatively few. People walk from tube station to bus stop - which is usually not too far, but isn't really "integrated", except in a few places like Canada Water, North Greenwich, Canning Town.

In Cardiff, lots of buses will drop off just a couple of hundred metres away in Westgate Street and Wood Street. Walking distances from train to bus will actually compare fairly favourably with London given the often long walks within stations to get to the tube. And yes, there will be maybe 120 services an hour able to use the bus station.

Would it have been nice to have a few more stops? Yes. Is it worth moving the bus station to the other side of the station to do that? No. Because that would have required big changes in routes and would have our main interchange on the 'wrong side of the tracks' if you like.

So I agree with Karl on this bus station point.

I disagree on the buildings on top - I really do think the relationship between the two, and thus the composition as a whole will look rather Milton Keynes-esque: too blocky, a rooftop car park viewable from all surrounding buildings.

This has clearly been driven by value-engineering in relation to the car park, choice of materials (which was more glass originally, I think) and design, and overall quantum of space (which they now think will be less worthwhile). It is a downgrade from conceptual drawings which although not confirmed did raise expectations.

However, I'll hold off judgement on this aluminium panelling. Some examples look quite nice and its possible this could be one of those.

I am going to count, tonight, the number of interchanges in London. Either bus- rail, rail-tube, tube-bus, tram-bus, tram-tube, tram-rail and DLR... I could go on. The small size of the proposed bus station, the lack of consultation or agreement with Network Rail and the failure to make an interchange the focal point of the proposed Metro are all indicative of a massive balls-up.

I'll be back.

That didn't take long. I just googled "how many transport interchanges in London" and this was the first result!

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... his-page-0

From the link:

Why interchange is important

Interchange facilities are the hubs that link London's public transport services together to form a network. If transfers between these services can be made easier, quicker, and more convenient, travel opportunities for existing and new passengers will emerge that are better, more frequent and wider ranging with travel horizons broadened.

I'm sure there's a lot more, and I'm nearly sure you, Randy, will be back to argue that "everything is fine, just keep drinking the Koolaid."

That didn't take long. I just googled "how many transport interchanges in London" and this was the first result!

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/urban-plann ... his-page-0

From the link:

Why interchange is important

Interchange facilities are the hubs that link London's public transport services together to form a network. If transfers between these services can be made easier, quicker, and more convenient, travel opportunities for existing and new passengers will emerge that are better, more frequent and wider ranging with travel horizons broadened.

I'm sure there's a lot more, and I'm nearly sure you, Randy, will be back to argue that "everything is fine, just keep drinking the Koolaid."

How many are tube to tube and how many are truly integrated e.g. like Paddington rail and tube?

The two most recently constructed systems (disregarding the Overground) are Tramlink and the DLR. Tramlink has 39 stops of which 7 are interchanges, either with rail or the tube. The DLR has 45 stations of which 16 are interchanges with rail or the tube. Naturally all of these stops,as far as I can tell, are on or near bus routes. I've examined Tramlink and a few of their stops - all have bus stops next to the tram stops! Feel free to find one that doesn't.

Looking at the central London rail termini, of which there are about 15, they all have bus stations or multiple bus stops directly outside their entrances. London Bridge station, which is nearing the end of its redevelopment, has had a new bus station built adjoining it, paid for by s106 cash from the developers of the London Bridge Quarter (which includes the Shard).

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... d.pdf.html

Google a random tube station, look it up on maps/street view and there will be a bus stop/station next to it.

I just went for Golders Green - and there's a large bus station next to it. I will try Silver street next - bus stop (lay-bys) within 50m. Let's try Southfields - yup, there's a bus stop outside the station. Those were all places my mates lived in 30 years ago, so they were names I knew and I'd got the train/tube to visit them (but not the bus).

As for Jantra's question I will have a look. Seems like these London folk might be onto something....

Jantra,there are about 600 tube or national rail stations in London and about 60 are interchanges between the two.

This is a Tube/Overground/DLR/Tramlink map - the interchanges have the BR symbol
http://www.projectmapping.co.uk/Reviews ... 202016.pdf

This is a map with the above networks on plus national rail
http://content.tfl.gov.uk/london-rail-a ... es-map.pdf

As an experiment I took the northernmost, most peripheral station - Hadley Wood - and streetviewed it. It has a nice bus stop with a shelter right outside it.

I visited Central Square today. The building quality of no1, and the look of construction on no.2 and BBC HQ looks very impressive in scale and quality. Shame that the centrepiece of it all is some 1960's monstrosity.