Today's Vote

Tiresome ranting and bigotry by those on the losing side.

Where were your comments when you thought this was a sure fire thing?
Remember, this is a democracy one person one vote, even if you regard the the ones that voted out as xenophobic, racist, bigoted fools as you so elegantly put it.. Do you realise how stupid and hypocritical this makes you all look

Infact, anyone who doesn't believe in your style on neo-liberalism seemingly is also branded a racist.

Either packup or shut up, the vote is over!


At least some Wallys have a sense of humour.


PS Simon, you now seem to have realised which thread your on, with your very own unique brand of bile

Zach, you obviously aren't too bright. It's a shame here the electorate here has outdone the Americans for the stupidity stakes, although that may change if they elect Trump in November, I'm sure you idolise his vile views too?

Watching Question Time just then, you had a non-EU migrant attack EU migrants, you couldn't make it up The funny thing is that the xenophobes and UKIPpers are on the same side of the argument as the non-EU 'brown' migrants, who are the immigrants they really want rid of. The masses don't realise that non-EU migration won't change and will be the first to kick off when this dawns on them.

To think how much Wales gets from the EU only to vote to leave I couldn't care about what happens to the tin pot valleys, they won't get half of the funding from a Tory government so deserve to sleep in the bed they made. At least Cardiff overwhelmingly voted to remain and I am proud that we aren't as bigoted as those who don't have a tenth as much immigration as we do in the city.

Kent Brockman eulogises it best...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWdfRRtAs3o

What a fucking mess......

On live television Faisal Islam, the political editor of SkyNews, was recounting a conversation with a pro-Brexit Conservative MP. “I said to him: ‘Where’s the plan? Can we see the Brexit plan now?’ [The MP replied:] ‘There is no plan. The Leave campaign don’t have a post-Brexit plan…

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/ ... _the_wheel

Shhhhh... you are implying that the simpletons who voted out had no real clue what they voted for apart from their prejudice, after all they are tired from hearing expert opinions! Oh wait...

I'm very much remain for many reasons and not all of them relate to the economy. We are talking about erecting physical borders between people not just states. we are sending a message out to our nearest neighbours that we think we are different from them, somehow better on our own rather than working together for a common cause.

however, in all of this, we can bemoan the fact that our opinion says this takes us back years, we should also be mindful that some people also chose leave and they did so for whatever reasons that are important to them. I don't think all leave supporters are racist, far from it. Just like the remain campaign it will be a broad church however if you asked me if less than 10% of the Leave campaign were racist or had serious anti immigrant beliefs I would say yes. Given that the margin of victory was around 700,000 or say 4-5% of those who voted, i don't think it is too outlandish to say that this nation's future has been decided by racist fascist bigots who were always going to vote leave irrespective of the other arguments put forward by the leave/remain campaigns.

Obviously I am incredibly disappointed. Not just because of the economy, but because of the kind of country it has shown we have become, and the country we risk becoming.

On the country we are. It is obvious we are incredibly divided. If anything the divide in votes across ages, education groups and social classes was even starker than I expected. Two-thirds of council tenants voted out. Four-fifths of those still in education voted in. We have become a country talking across each other rather than to each other for too long. We looked on with a sense of smug satisfaction as America fought its culture wars, not realising the same culture wars were bubbling under the surface in our country.

Related to this, I am worried about the "other Britain" that has been revealed. Is it a Britain of simple racists and idiots? No. Well, at least not entirely. But it is a Britain that has allowed the natural tendency for everyone to be at least a bit prejudiced to be manipulated. It is a Britain that voted "Out" in large part because of two misunderstandings: about the way Europe works and the power the UK actually had in it; and a misunderstanding about the role of immigration in labour market and public service problems facing the country.

Lets disgress about these misunderstandings...

Put simply, the EU Is not the undemocratic bullying parody portrayed in the right wing press. Laws are not made by "unelected bureaucrats":
- Laws are proposed by European Commissioners, who are put forward by national governments and approved by the European Parliament. This is very similar to the way the US or French presidents put their cabinets together. Are we saying France and the US are not democratic?
- Laws then need to be voted on by the European Parliament - to which we are all entitled to elect our MEPs -, and the Council of the European Union - which is made up of the governments of the EU, which are all elected by the citizens of their countries.
So fundamentally as an institution it is democratic.
So what is the issue then? Its just that in those areas where qualified majority voting (rather than unanimous voting) is required, then the UK's voice is just one of several that have to be heard - a big voice, but not the only voice. So sometimes (although rarely) we don't get our way. In principle thats no different to how democracy works in the UK. In some ways its better: we are currently led by a government almost two-thirds of people did not vote for.

Now a valid reason to vote against this would be that despite it being democratic, we don't feel part of that "demos". We aren't willing to pool our sovereignty with Europeans. I think that motivated many, if not most of the elites at the top of the Leave campaign - Gove, Hannan, for sure. Boris - well he never expected or wanted us to leave anyway. But I think many of those who voted to leave really do think they were voting to leave a club ruled by Bossy Eurocrats, where Britain consistently got told what to do against its will by unelected decision-makers.

And much quicker on migration... migration is not the reason for structural unemployment and poor quality services. The reason for that is low skills and a social housing system that stymies internal migration; and an under-investment in our public services as the fiscal consolidation has done too much on spending and not enough on taxes, and has protected the old at the expense of the young. Migration actually helps the public finances, making it easier to fund public services. And there is no evidence of any economically significant effect of migration on employment or wages of natives.

So why did people vote to a significant extent on the basis of two arguments that are largely untrue? Well, this is where I think there is some justification for saying there is a substrate of stupidity and racism involved. I think many people were wilfully ignorant. They simultaneously said they wanted "facts" while dismissing the large volumes of research and analysis that was trying to do it. Because it did not fit with their priors - that immigration is bad, and the EU is undemocratic, both of which are tinged with a bit of xenophobia -, it was dismissed as "bias". They allowed themselves to buy into the proposition put forward by a Vote Leave campaign that pushed all the anti-establishment, anti-elite buttons, but is fundamentally a creature of the elite.

So thats a long-way of saying Leave voters aren't simple racists or necessarily incredibly stupid - although some are. Its saying that many of us Remainers do think many if not most Leave voters have been wilfully ignorant of reality and the evidence out there; and have allowed themselves to be led by people who do not have their interests at heart. And I think a kernel of prejudice and a lack of real engagement in the issues has to lie behind that. Remainers have a right to be angry about that.

So, people like Zach and Mr Blue Sky can get down off their moral high horses: anger is real and justified. And if things had turned out differently, you know the Leave campaign would have been whinging about Project Fear - and "this not being over".

But Remainers have to pick themselves up and move on fairly quickly. We now face a really really difficult choice - especially those Remainers on the centre left. The question now is not "how do we undo this", its "what do we do next?". Most importantly - what relationship does Britain have with the EU and with the wider world?

All else equal, I think we would want to preserve as much of what we had with the EU. In particular, the single market and the free movement of labour (which also means applying EU market-related directives without a vote). It would be best for our economy and best for an open society.

But all else is not equal. The core of the Leave vote voted leave precisely on the issue of the free movement of labour. They will expect action. If there is instead a stitch up between the elite "free trade" Leavers and the Remainers to keep us as close to the current deal as possible, they will feel betrayed. And rightly so. If that happens I fear we'll see an even worse populism than we've seen in the last weeks and months.

So, it is time to move on.. to the very tricky decision of: What Next? Do we risk making the economic and diplomatic hit harder by moving further away from Europe than necessary? Or do risk storing up another explosion of populism from the left-behind working class?

what next...have you not heard, the leave campaign are about to unveil their plan for what happens next....

oh wait a minute, there is no plan

The Eu is precariously balanced at present, and its politicians will want to show other member states that leaving isn't easy and can be quite punitive. We cannot expect any favours in any negotiation and to suggest we get all what we want without any of the downside is nonsense. We either end up as we are but with no say, or we end up isolated but 'sovereign'.

incidentally, since Parliament is sovereign, and that is exactly what the 'Leave' campaign have been campaigning for, surely if Parliament vote to stay, the 'Leave' campaign will respect the will of Parliament?

I hope that the EU disintegrates and is replaced. Having worked for Plaid and knowing Jill Evans and her team pretty well I can say, again, categorically that there is a great deal of corruption and waste.

My father has worked as a consultant for, amongst other bodies, the EU/EEC for 40 years. He's still raking the cash in although he's in his seventies. He voted in. The whole web of organisations, the whole network of the Brussels gravy train, is basically, corrupt.

Just like Westminster. Just like Cardiff Bay, and Cardiff Council. All partially corrupt.

I'm glad that this has happened. And to Jantra, Randy etc : most people are racist. White Brits are, on average, about the least racist people on Earth. They've been subjected to inclusivity, anti-racism, progressive politics and so on, and they believe that they aren't at all racist. But they are a little. How many close friends from ethnic minorities do you have?

Many UK residents from ethnic minorities are very racist. They don't like white people and that is why they have very little to do with them. FACT. I live in the middle of Wales' most ethnically diverse neighbourhood and over the decades I've seen the amount of mixing decrease.

What is most racist is the foreign policy of successive UK governments, bombing defenceless dark-skinned people year after year. The cognitive dissonance of the posters bleating on here is something to behold. Did you vote Tory or Labour since 2003?

If so you are a mega fucking racist as you supported a political party hellbent on maintaining the UK's position by blowing up ethnic minorities.

On migrant integration - I can very well believe what you say. I think in some areas where a 'critical mass' of migrants from particular ethnic or religious backgrounds have concentrated, mixing has decreased. Thats probably especially noticeable in places like Cardiff and Liverpool where old docks communities were very diverse but where no single minority community had that critical mass. Its also fair to say ethnic minority people can be racist - against whites and against other minorities, and even against themselves!

But I think this is a bit of a straw man in the EU referendum. These are issues largely for non-European migration. European migrants share much more culturally with the Welsh and British. Yes they may continue to speak Polish among themselves and go to Polish shops. But they drink, they watch football, and their kids integrate fully at school and become a Brit with a funny sounding surname.

On your last point. Wow. This is where crazy comes out. While it is increasingly clear that the rationale for intervention in Iraq and Libya was ill-thought-out, and the planning for "what next" simply lacking in some cases... one can in no way say that UK policy is "to bomb defenceless dark-skinned people". The UK military (and US military for that matter) take great pains to avoid civilian casualities. Targets are not selected when collateral damage may be high. The difference between that and Russia or China... or even more so the terrorists who go out of their way to kill civilians.. is incalculable.

You are just showing yourself to be even more unhinged than I expected with this line of reasoning.

On migrant integration - I can very well believe what you say. I think in some areas where a 'critical mass' of migrants from particular ethnic or religious backgrounds have concentrated, mixing has decreased. Thats probably especially noticeable in places like Cardiff and Liverpool where old docks communities were very diverse but where no single minority community had that critical mass. Its also fair to say ethnic minority people can be racist - against whites and against other minorities, and even against themselves!

But I think this is a bit of a straw man in the EU referendum. These are issues largely for non-European migration. European migrants share much more culturally with the Welsh and British. Yes they may continue to speak Polish among themselves and go to Polish shops. But they drink, they watch football, and their kids integrate fully at school and become a Brit with a funny sounding surname.

On your last point. Wow. This is where crazy comes out. While it is increasingly clear that the rationale for intervention in Iraq and Libya was ill-thought-out, and the planning for "what next" simply lacking in some cases... one can in no way say that UK policy is "to bomb defenceless dark-skinned people". The UK military (and US military for that matter) take great pains to avoid civilian casualities. Targets are not selected when collateral damage may be high. The difference between that and Russia or China... or even more so the terrorists who go out of their way to kill civilians.. is incalculable.

You are just showing yourself to be even more unhinged than I expected with this line of reasoning.

Insulting my sanity shows you up for what you really are: a "progressive" gravy-trainer wedded to a fascist ideology. Using Occam's Razor when examining UK foreign policy over the past 10, 50 or 500 years one can certainly say that the main aim is to maintain the Crown's/City's preeminence, with one of the main tools used being that of killing and terrorising dark-skinned people.

Look up "cognitive dissonance". It is what you are suffering from. I have studied psychology at two universities and have a masters in the subject, so I'm an expert compared to you Randy.